Amis and Islamophobia

[garo]

This thread breaks off from the Anti-cholesterol and whisky thread found here: http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=9862

And lastly, speaking of Martin Amis, he is a good fiction writer but not so good a non-fiction writer in my opinion. A bit like V.S. Naipaul. And dangerous because the quality of their writing can seduce you into believing things they write without doing any research or investigation.

[davieddy]

And lastly, speaking of Martin Amis, he is a good fiction writer but not so good a non-fiction writer in my opinion. A bit like V.S. Naipaul. And dangerous because the quality of their writing can seduce you into believing things they write without doing any research or investigation.

I listened to a half hour interview with Martin on the BBC World Service
last night, devoted to Islamophobia. I see what you mean, but as an exact
contemporary found myself in broad agreement.

Apparently Rowan Williams (Archbishop of Canterbury) is 3 months
younger than me. There was definitely something in the air in 1968
for us intellectual hippies

David

[garo]

Yes I googled this as well

Being pedantic or a show-off or both, I'd like to point out that I did not google this. I learnt it while on the Guinness Brewery tour.

I see what you mean, but as an exact contemporary found myself in broad agreement.

And you've probably done the same amount of investigative journalism and been exposed to the same idiocies in the MSM as he has

I mean he has to be seriously bone-headed to think that Muslim parents getting tough with their children will cure Islamic terrorism. He says (quoted here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/entertainment/7210085.stm )

In conversation with the journalist, he suggested in response to the alleged plot to blow up planes at Heathrow: "there is a definite urge... to see Muslims suffer until they get their house in order."
The suffering he said they should face included curtailing freedoms; "strip searching people who look like they are from the Middle East, Pakistan, until it hurts the whole community and they start getting tough with their children."

Leave aside for a moment the racist implications here and how seriously offensive to the principle of natural justice his proposal for collective punishment is. I see it as a serious character flaw that he proposes responding with anger and in order to humiliate people. As a writer, one would think he would be sensitive enough to know that anger and humiliation never works. And if he were smart enough, he would probably examine the role that previous and continuing humiliations of Muslims (and for that matter of Africans and assorted Asians) have played in bringing us to this sorry state of affairs.

The UK is already more than half-way towards becoming a police state and law enforcement there is rife with racism and discrimination. A few more guys like Martin Amis and you will be an Orwell-state before long.

[davieddy]

Originally Posted by garo

Being pedantic or a show-off or both, I'd like to point out that I did not google this. I learnt it while on the Guinness Brewery tour.

And you've probably done the same amount of investigative journalism and been exposed to the same idiocies in the MSM as he has

I've located Termofeckin and now know where you're coming from!
An unsympathic description of reading "English" at university would
go along the lines of "knowing how to talk but having nothing to talk
about".
All the same I would hope he has read more than I have. (I am a slow
reader, unlike Paul Seymour who assured me that Martin wrote good novels).
As to exposure to mass media (if that is what MSM means) then the
answer is an obvious yes. Notably the "Irish Problem" on which subject
we have been bombarded over the last 40 years with more than enough
to last a lifetime. I think we regard it just as critically as you.

Now where did our "police state" come from again?

David

[ewmayer]

For those not familiar with the post-9/11 arc of Amis' writings, may I suggest starting here?

Martin Amis: The Age of Horrorism

I also suggest we divert the Amis-on-topics-other-than-alcoholic-spirits discussions to more suitable threads, more likely to be found in the Soapbox.

[garo]

I've located Termo(n)feckin and now know where you're coming from!

Ah the perils on being on an Xyzzy-administered forum. Don't read too much into that place name. It just sounded rude so was chosen for me.

I do not deny that Martin Amis has written good novels - though I've never read any so can't give my personal opinion. The first piece I read was the Age of Horrorism piece linked by Ernst above when it first appeared in September 2006. I found the piece persuasive yet disturbing and read it again. However, on the second reading, I came away convinced of its sophistry.

As far as police state is concerned, the UK is far and away the most surveillance-heavy democracy. And certainly your SOCPA laws that ban demonstrations near the parliament among other things are a sure sign of the creeping police state. I mean prosecuting Maya Anne Evans was a nutcase job.

Going back to Amis, I would like to hear people's opinions about his views such as the one I quoted in my post above. Do you all believe in collective punishment?

[bsquared]

Originally Posted by garo

Going back to Amis, I would like to hear people's opinions about his views such as the one I quoted in my post above. Do you all believe in collective punishment?

Even if collective punishment were a good idea and effective (which I strongly do not believe to be the case), it doesn't seem like it would be collective enough to have any effect in this case. Would punishing and humiliating a bunch of western muslims have any effect on how people in isolated middle eastern villages raise/teach their children? It would just throw fuel on the fire when they learn what those infidel western countries are doing.

[retina]

collective punishment = guilt by association = very bad thing

It is always about the individual, some are good, some are not, but that in no way relates to any religion/IQ/height/colour/weight/gender/age/sexual orientation/race/political orientation/[and more *ist ways that I can't think of now]

[xilman]

Originally Posted by bsquared

Even if collective punishment were a good idea and effective (which I strongly do not believe to be the case)

Collective punishment can be very effective. Go ask the Carthaginians.

Paul

[jasong]

Not sure if this is going to be considered off-topic or not, but...

The terrorists not only got what they wanted with 9/11, they were probably even more thrilled after the Patriot Act was put in effect, and more thrilled than that when the Afghanistan and Iraq wars started going sour for us, the US.

Is not freedom worth more than preventing a little death? (I'm talking about US soil death, not our war deaths. We never should have invaded those countries, even if we had been correct about it being a cakewalk)

[davieddy]

Originally Posted by ewmayer

For those not familiar with the post-9/11 arc of Amis' writings, may I suggest starting here?

Martin Amis: The Age of Horrorism

I also suggest we divert the Amis-on-topics-other-than-alcoholic-spirits discussions to more suitable threads, more likely to be found in the Soapbox.

That article sure provides a lot of context out of which to quote him