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#463 | ||
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A Sunny Moo
Aug 2007
USA (GMT-5)
624910 Posts |
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#464 | |
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∂2ω=0
Sep 2002
República de California
19·613 Posts |
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#465 | |||||||||
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"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA
1E0C16 Posts |
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When one considers that the ocean waters have a much greater heat-holding capacity than atmosphere and air, it becomes even more important not to leave out subsurface ocean temperatures. You have not yet shown that you understand that. The Spiegel article never ever made that distinction. All its references to temperature are evidently surface temperatures. E.g., "temperatures declined in large areas of North America, the western Pacific and the Arabian Peninsula. Europe, including Germany, remains slightly in positive warming territory." Clearly, the references to North American, Arabian Peninsula, and Europe are about surface temperatures, and clearly there is no distinction made that the western Pacific temperatures are anything except surface temperatures also. The article at http://www.skepticalscience.com/glob...ed-in-1998.htm explains why it is "necessary to point out about ocean heat content or global heat content", as you put it. You show no sign of understanding that. Please acknowledge that you understand this basic point, because until you do, all of the rest of your argument is meaningless because it's based on the false idea that the global warming trend can be measured by surface and air temperatures alone. Once you understand why the subsurface ocean temperatures are important, you will also understand, I hope, that as long as the ocean depths are still warming, the plateau in surface temperatures does not mean that global warming has paused. Once you admit that, the whole Spiegel article's premise (that global warming has plateaued) falls apart. Quote:
If that were true, why haven't we seen 11-year cycles dominating the global warming trend? The absence of significant 11-year cycles in the global warming trend means that solar sunspot cycles cannot be a significant cause of global warming. Next, regarding whether there has been a long-term (longer than 11 years, not related to sunspot cycle) overall solar increase: That extremely obvious possibility has been explicitly and thoroughly considered by climatologists before they ever declared that we have a global warming trend. Perhaps you're unaware that astronomers have been measuring the rate of solar energy reaching Earth for well over a century (from the ground, and for multiple decades from space satellites). It hasn't varied significantly, aside from the 11-year sunspot cycle. Thus, climatologists already have solid evidence that the warming was not significantly due to solar output increase. The notion that they've ignored or overlooked this effect would be proposed only by people who are ignorant about climatology. Quote:
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You presented the article to us by writing: "Here's an example of one article presenting some convincing anti-global-warming evidence that had the amazing fortune of being allowed to surface: http://www.spiegel.de/international/...662092,00.html" By saying that, you endorsed the content of the article as being a good-enough representation of "convincing" "evidence". This quibble about journalist versus scientist is clearly an effort to avoid answering the gist of my criticisms. Consider all my references to be to the people who originated the ideas. You wouldn't be trying to backtrack away from your endorsement by saying that the journalist who wrote the article didn't write accurately, would you? You presented the article as containing evidence, not just a journalist's perhaps-mistaken interpretation of evidence. Do you wish to make a change in your endorsement? Quote:
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#466 | ||||
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"Richard B. Woods"
Aug 2002
Wisconsin USA
22×3×641 Posts |
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How much of that do you think is simply resistance to behavioral change - the desire to keep doing things the way we've been doing them? ("Change is painful.") Quote:
Do you acknowledge that that possibility means that the recent pause cannot be taken to be any proof that the warming trend has stopped? Quote:
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If you want to present "convincing" evidence, you'll have to do a lot better than the Spiegel article. It would have been much more convincing if you had presented an article written by established climatologists and published in a peer-reviewed journal or at least in a science-oriented magazine with a history of scientific accuracy (such as Scientific American) rather than an article written by a journalist for a general-audience publication. By presenting a popular-audience article written by a journalist with such obvious scientific flaws, you've only confirmed my contention that the only debate still going on is not between competent climatologists, and that the actual scientific debate is over. Last fiddled with by cheesehead on 2009-11-23 at 00:03 |
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#467 | |
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Dec 2008
Boycotting the Soapbox
24·32·5 Posts |
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As a starting point I'll argue that GW-alarmism is an especially attractive position for people one can comfortably classify as losers, because the failure to to have achieved anything of significance in their life makes them assets, whereas the winners, who have become wealthy by making it possible for everybody to own a car (or live an extra ten years in spite of high cholesterol), are actually liabilities because they are destroying the planet. Last fiddled with by __HRB__ on 2009-11-23 at 00:40 |
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#468 |
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"Phil"
Sep 2002
Tracktown, U.S.A.
3·373 Posts |
Here's another point of view:
www.guardian.co.uk Again, a journalist, not a scientist, but interesting never-the-less. |
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#469 | |
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Dec 2008
Boycotting the Soapbox
2D016 Posts |
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Apparently the authors created an extra 25 data points so they could keep on smoothing until the last measured sample. The issue is that the authors deliberately chose not the last available average but zero (which was significantly above the last average), the overall effect being that the graph goes sharply upward in the last 25 years. According to the hacked correspondence, this was not the honest error of bad scientists, but deception with malicious afterthought by dishonest pseudo-scientists. I doubt that public media will be able to whitewash this (like the quote Guardian article), so hopefully GW-alarmism is over, and we can hopefully discuss effects of possible "Global Lukewarming" without us monkeys going completely apeshit. Last fiddled with by __HRB__ on 2009-11-23 at 03:34 |
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#470 |
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"Phil"
Sep 2002
Tracktown, U.S.A.
3·373 Posts |
I read a number of the comments, and found most of them not particularly interesting, so I must have missed what you found. Care to post the particular links that you found relevant? It is not unusual to weigh later data points more highly if the accuracy is considerably higher than the earlier data points, but of course, this can be problematic if one is attempting to demonstrate a systematic change over time. If the earlier data is not that reliable, any such change would be reliably demonstrated.
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#471 | ||||
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Dec 2008
Boycotting the Soapbox
24×32×5 Posts |
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http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=7810 UPDATE: The files are now also on: http://wikileaks.org/wiki/Climatic_R...els,_1996-2009 If stuff like the following turns out to be real... Quote:
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Last fiddled with by __HRB__ on 2009-11-23 at 05:08 |
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#472 | |||
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∂2ω=0
Sep 2002
República de California
19·613 Posts |
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#473 | |
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∂2ω=0
Sep 2002
República de California
19·613 Posts |
Here is an article detailing the alleged "tree ring conspiracy" - besides the (alleged) data manipulation, the note about incestuous staffing on certain key IPCC panels is interesting. The article (of which I only reprint the first portion) features the same Keith Briffa to whom the 2nd e-mail reproduced in my post above is addressed:
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Last fiddled with by ewmayer on 2009-11-23 at 16:17 |
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