Evolution: The Scientific Evidence

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

To me, the holes in current evolutionary theory are significant.

Just what is their significance to you?

The holes in evolutionary theory are far smaller than the holes in creationism or Intelligent Design! If you (or another, if you're no longer reading this thread) know of an example of a testable scientific prediction by creationism or ID that is more accurate than evolution's corresponding prediction, please point to or present it.

For example: Humans have a tailbone. Once in a while a baby is born with a small tail (and doctors routinely remove it right after the delivery). Evolution easily explains those facts. How does creationism, ID, or any other alternative to evolution scientifically explain them? If they can't, then evolution is demonstrated in this instance to be a superior scientific theory.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by mfgoode

If you say that the theory of adaptation to environment and circumstances and natural selection is true it certainly suggests some gruesome possibilities for our race.
I can imagine by your theory to see some humpbacked farmers, with enormous muscular bodies, large headed students with short sighted eyes, office workers with useless shrunken legs, many fingered piano players, mail carriers with legs way out of proportion to their bodies and night watchman with bulging eyes as big as saucers .

I see nothing in what jinydu wrote to justify your imagined possibilities. It looks a lot more like you are ignorant of what evolutionary biology really says.

What evolutionary textbooks or other expositions by supporters of evolution have you ever read?

please read and study Genesis first.

I've read Genesis multiple times. It has great stories, well worth being passed on for thousands of years. But it's not a compilation of scientific observations.

You must look at both sides of the coin to evaluate it.

Just how much of the other side of this coin have you studied?

[mfgoode]

Sorry cheesehead I thought I was addressing jinydu's post and my references and comic relief was for him
not you.

Originally Posted by cheesehead

Just what is their significance to you?

The holes in evolutionary theory are far smaller than the holes in creationism or Intelligent Design! If you (or another, if you're no longer reading this thread) know of an example of a testable scientific prediction by creationism or ID that is more accurate than evolution's corresponding prediction, please point to or present it.

Could you predict what man will evolve into in the generations to come with a concrete proof? and a reliable 'guess' as there is no way except idle speculation. Thats where Theistic evolution takes over and predicts mans spiritual destiny long after death. Proof? Its written in black and white 6000 years ago! That is the difference!
I reiterate that man is not in the class of an animal at all. Great difference.
He has the capacity to realise the omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent God.
Theistic evolution takes over at death where life just begins for man. Sorry man becomes dust and useless, in atheistic evolution.
Remember someday as sure as I sit here that you will want to switch over on your death bed to theistic E and then I pray for you that your wish will be granted. Where will your PhD you plan take you then?
Thats why Paul the apostle can boast 'Oh death where is thy victory ;? Oh grave where is thy sting'?.
It is a real pity that learned people who fathom the mysteries of scientific life refuse to believe in the mystery of death!
You have said that spirit is something vague to talk about with certainty in an earlier post, well so is the 4D continuum and complex functions. They're equally vague concepts but they work and who knows what will supplant them in the next few years?
And here is some comic relief. 50 years ago I was content at seeing one piece bathing suited women on the poolside and beaches. Then fashion changed gradually (like your Evolution!) and today the bikini leaves nothing to the imagination! Neck lines are getting lower and hem lines higher and Boy jinydu and I certainly want to be around when the two meet!

For example: Humans have a tailbone. Once in a while a baby is born with a small tail (and doctors routinely remove it right after the delivery). Evolution easily explains those facts. How does creationism, ID, or any other alternative to evolution scientifically explain them? If they can't, then evolution is demonstrated in this instance to be a superior scientific theory.

If and when you study techniques in mass production and the design of jigs you will understand why and what is meant by economy of design. If you can slightly alter a pattern and utilise the remaining well and good rather than make a radically new one for the next model. Take a trip to Detroit and enquire how cars are manufactured.
Why go so far as in your own field- binary arithmetic- is the answer. But I hope you get the point as I wont labour on it.
The tail bone is not an extra useless addition to the human body and not a tail as in animals. The human body is perfectly designed by an all Intelligent Being. It acts as a buffer for shocks on the intricately designed sensitive spinal cord. Ever land on your butt when someone pulls a chair from below you? You will blurt out 'Thank God' Not 'Thank Charles Darwin'!
And to leave you on a friendly note please remember
'If you see a monkey up a tree, lift its tail and think of Me!' The same with the appendix!
Mally

[mfgoode]

[QUOTE=cheesehead;87532]No, that is not true- - - -

BTW, I attended many years (all my life until past age 18) of worship services and Sunday School in a Christian denomination (Methodist) and I have read the entire Bible.[/QUOTE


Well cheesehead thats why you had enough matter and principle ingrained in you to prevent a suicide you talk about. Forgive me for being personal but that is a fact. If you did not school on Sundays probably I would be addressing a grave stone by now or never.
Well, be as it may, you now have a choice and only you can make the decision, no one else for you.
My prescription for you is 'No more church, no more Bible'
Just remember the Lord Jesus' words and thats all there is to it.

' I am the Resurrection and the Life; those who believe In their hearts in Me shall not perish but have Life everlasting.'

Thats all there is to it. We are talking about bodies in evolution but there is a body called 'The Mystical Body of Christ' in which all believers are included.
Mind you ALL believers- not church goers or Bible thumpers only or the holier than thou preachers but just believers in Christ that he died and resurrected for YOU. He has already paid your debt. All you have to do us accept him as your Savior.
And you have the choice. A timeless blob of protoplasm which suddenly mutates at some point of time and billions of years after Cheesehead is born no different from your pet dog or cat or cockatoo with the same dusty end.
Or an ever-loving saviour who has paid your debt and purchased your freedom
from the oppressor of souls.(I honour your admonition not to take his name)
Mally
P.S.
First of all your points of reason in debate is correct and I stand to your correction.

[ewmayer]

Originally Posted by mfgoode

The human body is perfectly designed by an all Intelligent Being.

So I suppose then that hemorrhoids, cancer and other diseases the oh-so-perfect human body is prone to are ... Satan's work? How do you explain birth defects, retardation and the myriad of other obvious imperfections that humans (and other animals) suffer in the context of your mystical God-like perfection?

But there's little point discussing this further with you, Mally ... you're a blinkered regurgitator of religious dogma who would deny the nose on his face if it happened to disagree with That Which Is Written in the book you worship as God, even though it is clearly the work of men and, like all such works, fallible. You've apparently been sufficiently indoctrinated in your particular dogma that you probably can't even remember when was the last time you had an original thought in that head of yours - at least judging from your postings around here, I see no evidence of creative, critical thought - just a neverending series of "Read the bible - it will explain all...", ludicrous quotes from people who misunderstand or twist science in a way you feel comfortable with (and of course accept unquestioningly), the occasional link about some mathematician you like (nice, but again wholly unoriginal), and or course titty jokes - lots of titty jokes. The latter would at least seem to confirm at least some remnant of a healthy sense of your own animal nature, but of course only animals lust and have sex - humans engage in Holy (and occasionally even Immaculate) Procreation, don't they?

Let me guess ... you're probably about to embark on a typically ill-informed, long-winded Bible-thumping reply, perhaps including a condescending "I will pray for you..." - please, don't bother. Remember, condescension is a form of arrogance, and arrogance stems from pridefulness and thus is a sin, according to your God-Book.

(A typically hilarious quip about titties, your collection of Russ Meyer films, or worshipful experiences you've shared with Zeppelin-breasted women would be nice, though - know any?)

[ewmayer]

Getting back to the actual topic of scientific evolutionary theory, there's a nice blurb in the New York Times today, "New Species Found off Indonesia":

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: September 19, 2006

BANGKOK, Sept. 18 — Scientists combing through undersea fauna off Papua province in Indonesia said Monday that they had discovered dozens of new species, including a shark that walks on its fins and a shrimp that looks like a praying mantis.

The team from Conservation International also warned that the area, known as Bird’s Head Seascape, is under danger from fishermen who use dynamite and cyanide. The group, based in the United States, called on Indonesia’s government to do more to protect it.

“It’s one of the most stunningly beautiful landscapes and seascapes on the planet,” said Mark Erdmann, a senior adviser at the group who led two surveys of the area earlier this year.

Mr. Erdmann and his team said they had discovered 52 new species, including 24 fish, 20 coral and 8 shrimp.

Mr. Erdmann said the discoveries add to an already legendary reputation for the area, which encompasses 70,000 square miles on the northwestern end of the province.

Dubbed Asia’s “Coral Triangle,” the area is home to more than 1,200 species of fish and nearly 600 species of reef-building coral, or 75 percent of the world’s known total.

It is a few hundred miles from another site studied by Conservation International. Researchers announced in February that a survey of that area, in the Foja Mountains, discovered 20 frog species, including a microhylid frog less than a half-inch long; 4 butterfly species; and at least 5 new types of palms.

In the interest of scientific accuracy, note that the correct wording should be "X newly discovered species", not "discovered X new species."

[cheesehead]

Jwb52z,

I'm continuing to work on my response to your "I know you won't ..." posting. I haven't forgotten.

As I looked at my first draft, I realized that it needed to be more comprehensive in certain regards. Now I think I have a satisfactory outline, and I'm writing the next draft.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by mfgoode

Well cheesehead thats why you had enough matter and principle ingrained in you to prevent a suicide you talk about.

No, Mally, religion had nothing to do with it. As you'll see in a future posting from me, the way I resisted suicide was entirely secular.

Forgive me for being personal but that is a fact.

No, it's your opinion. I'm fairly sure you know the difference between fact and opinion.

If you did not school on Sundays probably I would be addressing a grave stone by now or never.

That's your opinion, right?

I'm aware of the rhetorical device of declaring that one's opinions are "facts", in order to make one's argument seem stronger. I challenge you to abandon that rhetorical maneuver.

And you have the choice. A timeless blob of protoplasm which suddenly mutates at some point of time and billions of years after Cheesehead is born no different from your pet dog or cat or cockatoo with the same dusty end.

Once again, you write as though you are ignorant of the actual process of biological evolution. As I indicated before, that's not going to get my respect.

Or an ever-loving saviour who has paid your debt and purchased your freedom from the oppressor of souls.

Why should I think your preferred choice is better than the alternative when you haven't even demonstrated that you know what the alternative really is?

(I honour your admonition not to take his name)

I made no such admonition. I did advise you not to promote your "Satan" theory to explain "possession" or other mental illness, but I never asked you not to "take his name".

First of all your points of reason in debate is correct

So, will you alter your debating style according?

and I stand to your correction.

Show us.

BTW, my following questions for you still stand unanswered:

"What evolutionary textbooks or other expositions by supporters of evolution have you ever read?"

"Just how much of the other side of this coin have you studied?"

[mfgoode]

Originally Posted by garo

given the poem you quote, Mally I hink you will agree that evolution formonkey to man was in fact a fall.

:

Most definitely Garo! Physically 'No'.

Man was made to walk upright without a stoop unlike his cousin apes as an exception to the rule of 4 legs (with a tail if you insist!). You dont need a qualified evolutionist to say so.
However spiritually 'Yes'. When I say spiritually I mean all the qualities which distinctly keep us a part from animals and their ancestors.
There was a time when Man (Adam) did not know good from evil (whatever you term 'Not good' ). He was a complete creation with body, mind and soul with no knowledge of the evil we know rampant today. He didnt need to be given the 10 commandments on stone or in letter. They were indelibly stamped on his mind and soul. Our posters say these are vague terms and not worth considering seriously. Well if they dont want to learn about the soul then how can they understand the language written on it?
Being innocent in every way like a child how come he suddenly puts on covering to cloak his uncomely parts when nudity was natural to him and his wife?
This is because he realises for the first time that he does wrong by initiating a forbidden act. What it is we can only speculate but it was an act of disobedience.
No monkey can now or in the distant future comprehend the import of disobeying a command and being conscious of it by attempting to cloak it. He may be trained to do the action
There is much more to Genesis than being written off as simple as a children's story.
The sad part is it too simple for the learned as prophesied ' a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks'.
Mally

[jinydu]

Originally Posted by mfgoode

:
No monkey can now or in the distant future comprehend the import of disobeying a command and being conscious of it by attempting to cloak it.

That seems like a falsifiable claim. Does anyone know of any documented examples of a monkey doint this?

[S485122]

Conrad Lorentz had examples of dogs "lying". I seem to remeber that in some accounts of Jand Goodall and other primatologists there are accounts of apes "lying".

The difference between organisms seems, most of the time, to be quantitative and not qualitative. The same can be said about "artificial intelligence". It is not something that is pursued a lot, because there seems to be no need for more thinkers (and that the traditionnal way of producing them gives us more than enough ;-) It is just that we use more and more power, for bigger and bigger calculations (be it in the game world or the maths world...)