Bible-fact, fiction,or mythology?

[T.Rex]

Originally Posted by mfgoode

If you have just read say 5 of the 13 books of Euclid could you say that he neither proves or disproves any theorems by not believing his axioms ? which he first postulates?
The same question I put to Tony and Ernst?

Mally, compare Euclid's books to actual Mathematical researchs. Enormous improvements have been done, because so many people have analyzed, critisized and improved the work of previous Mathematicians.
Now, look at The Bible. It is forbidden to improve it. It is still the same, an outdated attempt to explain the World, why we are there, why we know we are there, why we live and then die.

Be honest with your selves and please let me know if you have even read the whole of the New Testament leave alone the OT. or you are basing your opinions on hearsay from others ?
Mally

Good point. I never read The Bible entirely. Only some small parts. But my wife believes in God and we talked a lot.
Again, re-read Ernst's post. The problem is not the book. The problem is that people think that everything in Holy Books is true ... When badly translated (as Ernst explained), the sentences you read today DO NOT say what the authors (about 2000 years ago) meant to say. Also, people of Vatican have cleaned these old books and have decided which ones say the truth, and which ones do not say the truth ... How did they know ?
Read Maths books, they always say the truth !

Now, I'm tired of this discussion.
You cannot convince me. I cannot convince you.
You'll never know the truth. Because there is nothing after our life. And this is the main problem and why The Bible were written: reduce our fear of the Death and live more quietly.

Tony
(My wife is at Hospital since 8 weeks. Colon cancer. Possibly deadful. I still do not see God around. I just see that Science and Medecine have saved her once and that they can save her again. I thank Doctors and Nurses. I thank all people who spent their life to understand how we are built. I can see that we simply are animals: very nice, complex and fragile machines, with a wonderful brain. And our Spirit disappears when our Body dies.)

"Jusqu'ici, tout va bien" (Up to now, everything is OK)

Take care of you.

[Uncwilly]

I here reference my post in another thread: http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpos...9&postcount=10

There are other things that I could add, for example: that the Jews would return to the land, the rise of Britan, among others.

[ewmayer]

Originally Posted by mfgoode

Be honest with your selves and please let me know if you have even read the whole of the New Testament leave alone the OT. or you are basing your opinions on hearsay from others?

Ah, the irony of that statement ... we can just as easily turn the question around: So, do you have personal and unequivocal experience of God and proof of a Christian-style afterlife, or are you basing your beliefs on hearsay? (a.k.a. the Bible.)

And yes, I have read much (though not all) of the Bible. I consider it a fascinating cultural document - a blend of historical fact and fiction, much wisdom-of-the-ages, many useful teachings (and some I consider not so good), a lot of mythmaking and no small amount of religious politicking. But when somebody takes it literally or reads things into it that aren't objectively speaking there, they lose me.

And I don't need to take it on faith or out of some book that six billion people (and millions more every week) is more than our shared planet can safely sustain, or that (much like overpopulation) religious intolerance and zealotry is the cause of an unconscionable amount of human suffering and wanton destruction. If memorizing this-or-that holy scripture could solve those problems I would gladly do so, but in fact I see precisely the opposite trend at work in the world - the more zealously people follow whatever holy book they claim as the RIGHT one, the more they tend to use that to denigrate others who are not of "the" faith, and the more unholiness they become capable of to anyone they see as the "other." In that sense I believe any creed that does not have as its central tenet the shared humanity (and thus, equality in the eyes of whatever supreme being - not that there even needs to be one to support that kind of humanistic moral standpoint) of *all* people on this planet, and respect for our fellow living creatures and the Earth as a whole, to be immoral and hence, illegitimate. If there's a chapter or commandment in either the old or new testament that basically says "We are all equal in the eyes of God, whether we choose to believe in him/her/it or not, as long as we show kindness to our fellow humans and respect for the planet" by all means do let me know, because I must've overlooked that one somehow.

===

p.s.: Very sorry to hear about your wife, Tony. My heartfelt wishes that she may recover. At the very least I hope the doctors are doing whatever they can to ease her suffering - not that that will necessarily ease yours, which is of a different kind, but no less by any means - and that you can still enjoy some of whatever time you may have together.

[retina]

Well Retina how much exactly have you read through it (The Bible) to pass judgement on it?

Actually I didn't pass judgement on it, I simply stated that one cannot prove or disprove anything written. If there are some mathematical threads in there then perhaps you are right and they can be analysed and tested for correctness. But problems arise like this: I know there has been debate about some passages where the bible alludes to saying PI = 3, but then others simply pass it off as "it was necessary to write like that so as not to confuse the people with mathematical understanding of 2000 years ago". Such statements reduce the ability to go and prove things because then there is always an alternative interpretation that suits the reader so that the bible is "never right/wrong". Therefore, I go back to my original statement, it is not possible to either prove or disprove anything written in the bible.

Indeed, referring to my PI point above, I have heard people make claims like this also: "God used a different numbering system which meant that PI=3", and "God changed the fabric of space/time in the later years which made PI larger today than before". This shows how people will come up all sorts of explanations in order to suit their overwhelming desire to make the bible 100% truth in their minds. I generally think of such statements as self-delusion for the sake of bolstering a belief system.

[ewmayer]

On a lighter note: The Flying Spaghetti Monster knows all and sees all.

[T.Rex]

Originally Posted by ewmayer

On a lighter note: The Flying Spaghetti Monster knows all and sees all.

This site is REALLY GREAT !!!!

[T.Rex]

Originally Posted by Uncwilly

I here reference my post in another thread: http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpos...9&postcount=10
...
In the book of Daniel several predictions are made concerning politcal events. Notably in chapter 8 in predicts that the Persian empire would come to an end ...

Let's talk about a Math or Physic book providing a new theory:
- If the Math theory fails for some examples, the theory is wrong.
- If the Physic theory fails for some examples, the theory must be improved.

Now, let's open a book talking about the god of Christians:
- If some examples are true, then everything in the book is true (for Christians, not for me).

Do you see your mistake ?

T.

[T.Rex]

Originally Posted by retina

"PI=3"

I remember I read a book saying that someone in the USA in the XIXth century asked to vote a law saying that Pi=3.14 (3.140000... he meant). Can't remember where ...
Tony

[jinydu]

Originally Posted by T.Rex

I remember I read a book saying that someone in the USA in the XIXth century asked to vote a law saying that Pi=3.14 (3.140000... he meant). Can't remember where ...
Tony

I think that was just an urban myth, invented to show how illogical religious fundamentalists can be.

[mfgoode]

Originally Posted by retina

Actually I didn't pass judgement on it, I simply stated that one cannot prove or disprove anything written. If there are some mathematical threads in there then perhaps you are right and they can be analysed and tested for correctness. But problems arise like this: I know there has been debate about some passages where the bible alludes to saying PI = 3, but then others simply pass it off as "it was necessary to write like that so as not to confuse the people with mathematical understanding of 2000 years ago". Such statements reduce the ability to go and prove things because then there is always an alternative interpretation that suits the reader so that the bible is "never right/wrong". Therefore, I go back to my original statement, it is not possible to either prove or disprove anything written in the bible.

Indeed, referring to my PI point above, I have heard people make claims like this also: "God used a different numbering system which meant that PI=3", and "God changed the fabric of space/time in the later years which made PI larger today than before". This shows how people will come up all sorts of explanations in order to suit their overwhelming desire to make the bible 100% truth in their minds. I generally think of such statements as self-delusion for the sake of bolstering a belief system.

May God bless you Retina!
At least you are searching for the Truth for it is written "Seek and you shall find" the words of Jesus Himself in the New Testament.
If you don't believe Jesus, as a mathematician, then the famous d'Alembert said
"Go On! and Faith will come to you"

But Retina we cannot teach one the Pythagorean Theorem without knowing
first what a right angle is and then what a rt. angle is unless we assume that somewhere along the line we have to accept an axiom- a self evident truth.
Now we had a discussion of the value of PI from the Bible in one of my threads.

Possibly you have missed it, but, you are still searching and now again you have come full circle. This is what we call GRACE- a blessing direct from God.

I hope this URL will not only satisfy your curiosity but explain why it SEEMS the Bible is not accurate.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i2/pi.asp

Mally

[mfgoode]

Originally Posted by Uncwilly

I here reference my post in another thread: [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=75099&postcount=10"]
There are other things that I could add, for example: that the Jews would return to the land, the rise of Britan, among others.

May I elucidate Unwilly what you actually mean.

To a certain extent we are all scientists cum mathematicians. And as such we are drawn by logical, commonsense, statements.

The best proof of a scientific theory is when the predictions from it, which are still in the future, came true.

There is ample evidence in my statement regards Einstein and his prediction of the odd motion of Mercury, as per his theory, which he pointed out much before the eclipse was to be observed later on. And the prediction was true which satisfied not only the doubters, but also those who could not understand his theory.
There are many more such scientific predictions but I have given one ad lib and sufficient to prove my point. So we can say that if what a theory predicts in the future comes true, then there are sufficient reasons to believe that the theory is true and we test it by more observations- the more the better until there is no doubt about it.

Similarly the predictions in the Bible. THEY HAVE ALL COME TRUE UP TO DATE.

This is what Uncwilly has pointed out and please take trouble to refer to it

But, like any text book, one has to take the trouble to study it and procure it and see for your self. It is not dependant on hear say.

It had been predicted in the very same Bible I am referring to, and these are the latter times.

I quote "In the latter times many will come in MY Name but they will be wolves in sheep's clothing and they will deceive the very elect. Be wary of them, and dont be carried away by their doctrine"

The trouble with mankind is definitely not, that God is angry with man, but Man is angry with God. Apply this to yourselves, you may find the answer.

I will be obliged and grateful to those who believe in the Bible to come forth here and defend their beliefs as I am alone, but then, "God and I are a majority"

Mally