Illegal U.S. Immigration

[clowns789]

Do you think this is a big problem? How do you think it should be dealt with? How about this?

[alpertron]

In order to complete your jail you also need 9,631,418 square kilometers of concrete say at 10000 meters high, so you can use your airplanes.

[edorajh]

Yes, I think it's a big problem because all those poor souls, that desperately want to get in US, can't have decent life in their own homelands. Why on earth would anyone want to go to live illegal in US rather than in their own homelands if they have at least some chance for decent life back home.

Just build all the walls arround yourselves. And be sure that they are high enough. But don't forget to leave few doors open... just in case you have to run from your little castle.

[clowns789]

Well, if they're not stealing YOUR jobs, I guess you can make senseless posts like that.

[edorajh]

Yes, I'm aware that US workers are victims of this... but there are causes why those poor people want to leave their homelands. My point is that I'm 100% sure they will prefer to leave in their homelands instead of US if they have any chance of decent human life. But others stealing from them and their countries, and it's not stealing jobs, but much worse.

[outlnder]

Most countries have very restrictive immigration laws. Why shouldn't the U.S.??

Try moving to New Zealand or Australia.

[edorajh]

I have no problem with restrictive immigration laws.

But it would be very nice if those in power will be ready to restrict movement of capital as they are ready to restrict the movement of work force.

[garo]

A couple of quick thoughts.

outlnder: Australia and NZ do not have very restrictive immigration laws. Somewhat restrictive compared to the US but several other countries are much more restrictive. Try Japan.
The reason why I think it would not be a good idea for the US to have restrictive immigration laws is that it goes against the very spirit of the country. "Give me your tired, poor and hungry" and all that. The US is made up of immigrants.

clowns: If loss of jobs is such a problem why not catch and prosecute people who hire illegal immigrants? In many sectors the US has a serious labor shortage and if all illegal immigrants were deported, food prices will go over the roof. Now if you want your $1.29 Granny Smiths at Ralphs, you need exploitable immigrants. If there weren't 10 million immigrants willing to work for pennies, the US economy would be in a much worse shape than it is right now.

edorajh: Fully agree.

[Prime95]

The immigration issue is *so* much more complex than this thread and the media portray.

First off, the majority of Americans want a secure border AND some program for getting the vast majority of hard-working immigrants already here on a legal work program or program that results in citizenship. The majority also want a controlled influx of legal immigrants each year.

There are many issues involved (just off the top of my head):

1) How many, if any, current illegals should be deported and under what criteria?
2) What is the new path to citizenship for current illegals?
3) Can illegals obtain government benefits?
4) How should businesses that hire illegal workers be punished?
5) How much do we spend securing the borders?
6) Is English the official language of the U.S.?
7) Should documented workers be allowed to vote (in local elections)?
8) Should assimilating U.S. language, customs, and culture be a requirement for citizenship?

Yes, the U.S. economy needs immigrants to do work. But we don't need a 100 million immigrants. We need to come up with the right balance - no easy task.

[xilman]

Originally Posted by Prime95

The immigration issue is *so* much more complex than this thread and the media portray.

First off, the majority of Americans want a secure border

We need to come up with the right balance - no easy task.

Hi-jacking the thread somewhat, but I think my contribution is relevant so have no qualms in doing so.

First let me state that I am not now and have never been an American citizen. (US old-timers will recognize the format of that statement.)

Secondly, let me state that I, and many other people who wish to enter the US, have absolutely no wish to remain in the country longer than necessary to complete our business, vacation, etc. Strange as it may seem to US citizens, we actually prefer life in our own countries to life in the US.

My gripe is that the US borders are (apparently) porous to people not like me but downright unfriendly, not to say menacing, to people like me.

I have to travel to the US on business a few times a year. I'm relatively fortunate in that my stays are short and I come from a country the US seems to regard as being less threatening than most. There is something called the "visa waiver scheme" for such people. I have to fill in a green form on the plane and then stand in line to go through INS. The form is full of ridiculous questions such as "have you ever committed genocide" or "did you work for the Nazi government in Germany". It also has to be filled in with pedantic rigour or you stand a very good chance of being sent to the back of the line to fill in a new one (and, allegedly, a non-zero chance of being denied entry). Assuming that the paperwork is ok, you are fingerprinted like a common criminal and required to have your iris scanned. The length of time spent standing in line depends on which airport you arrive at. Denver and Houston are quick, Newark and LA atrociously slow, Boston and SF lengthy in my experience. It also depends on how many planes have arrived at the same time --- which is fair enough, as more people inevitably take more time to process.

In the other direction, entering the UK from the US appears to be much smoother and less bureaucratic. I've spoken with several US citizens coming into the UK and they all report identity checking which is faster and less intrusive than what the INS imposes. There are no stupid questions on the paperwork either (I've checked). Big international airports like Heathrow and Gatwick (the UK equivalent of Newark and LA) appear to be just as fast as regional airports such as Manchester and Glasgow (equivalent, say, to Denver and Boston).

That's the situation for visitors covered by the visa waiver scheme. Those who actually need a visa are in a much worse predicament. In the UK, such people have to travel to London and queue for several hours to get into the US embassy. The length of the queue is such that you must start early in the morning. Once pass the armed goons and inside the building, there is another lengthy queue under armed surveillance for the voluminous paperwork to be processed. Once more, if the documents aren't precisely correct or if the mugshot isn't precisely centred in the frame, you'll be sent to the back of the queue.

It has got to the point where some groups, and orchestras provide a particular example, are refusing to travel to the US. It is too costly to arrange overnight accommodation in London, to lose at least a day's work and probably two or three, and to undergo the stressful and degrading investigation.

Just one more reason for anti-American sentiments being widespread even in countries officially friendly to the US.


Paul

[garo]

Now that I have a bit more time I can expand on my previous hurried comments. George, good post pointing out that there are important questions to be answered. But in all honesty, the attitude of the political establishment in the US has been one of undisguised hypocrisy when it comes to dealing with undocumented workers. Several presidential appointees have withdrawn their names or were not considered in the first place when found to have employed undocumented workers. There has been very little political will towards punishing illegal employers and the employees have faced the brunt of law enforcement. This has left the latter very vulnerable though admittedly still better off than in their original countries though not always.

Paul's post was absolutely the best thing I read all day. It encapsulates my experience and particularly that of my wife who omes from a "friendly country", got a green card and is now a US citizen. She still feels nervous when approaching the the immigration desk at an airport. And rightly so, given that a US court (was it Supreme) ruled that US citizens did not have the same rights at a border post as they did when they are inside the country. All this talk about securing the borders and all those ridiculous forms were present long before September 2001 and didn't stop anything. They have become significantly worse since and I would seriously question their efficacy. The job of "securing the borders" was passed from one agency to another three times in the preceding five years. And this led to massive confusion for foreigners who were in the US legally at that time such as myself.

To add to Paul's narrative, just look at the list of requirements for a US visa today. It is downright ridiculous. No wonder people are choosing to keep away. I'll quote a friend's email who had to go for a conference in Atlanta to illustrate this:

I've called the USA Embassy (5 euros for the call), and they have given me an appointment in *florence*, and a list of documents to be provided:

form ds-156
form ds-157
photo 5x5 white background
draft 85 euro bnl
linvitation letter from conference
bank statement
Letter from employer
Proporty ownership papers

A4 envelope for letters with a 1.5 Euro stamp pre-affixed. You must come to the embassy without any cellphone, laptop or handheld device, or any backpacks.

(I've asked them if I have to give them also my first born, but this seems not required)

I will NOT go to florence to ask for a Visa. I don't intend to pass through
all this Nazi bullshit.

I'm sincerely tempted to cancel the trip altogether now, because the same kind of treatment will wait for me in the states.