Poaching

[garo]

I think, cheesehead, we have to remember that there are status reports on George's status page, namely LUCAS_V.TXT and HRF3.TXT from which would be poachers can anyway get all the information they need even if the status.txt were eliminated.

I argue that eliminating status.txt will turn some type-1 and type-2 poachers into type-3 while not really cutting down on type-3 poachers at all causing more harm to the project than good. You say that it will stop all type-1 and type-2 poaching and do nothing for type-3 poaching. We have our differences of opinion.

What is a given though is the fact that eliminating status.txt or even just the fields you mentioned will definitely reduce the "fun" aspect of the project for several people. And that's not just the poachers but people like me, trif, dswanson and several others who don't poach but look forward to all the info status.txt gives them, keep old records and can tell you today who poached and when etc. etc. among other things.

This curtailing of public stats information will drive participants away and not bring them in if my expreience as a DCer in the past three years tells me anything. More stats=good.

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!

[outlnder]

How to choose which ones need to be done??

Easy, the lowest 50. Period. When I completed those, then the next lowest 50, etc, etc, etc.

That's what I was saying. IF one wants to poach the trailing edge, all one has to do is grab the lowest exponents on ANY report!!

[Maybeso]

I agree with most of what cheesehead has said, but I also understand others love of stats.

Originally Posted by Darak

... If nobody knew what exponents were assigned then certainly it would be hard to poach them. Granted it would drive away orders of magnitude more CPU horsepower than poaching ever did….

There are at least a dozen or so of us that have fairly elaborate status information setups and I would for one very much hate to see that done away with. I have a database which keeps track of nearly all aspects of how the project progresses over time including projected completion dates based upon past performance using long term & short term data.

I'm curious, are any of the stats db's out there tied to each actual exponent - its progress thru the Gimps gauntlet - or tied to ranges of exponents?

What if the status reports masked each exponents last N digits, or in some other way?
Obviously the admins need an unmasked version of some reports so they can change the status of individual exponents; but while an exponent is assigned, do the rest of us need to know more than 2317xxxx?

AFAIK, none of the glitches that were found previously by noticing oddities in the status reports would be 'hidden' by a masked exponent. And when someone notices an oddity, it has to be verified and dealt with by the admins anyway. Just give certain users access to admin data if you want them to help deal with situations.

Masking the exponent would stop all but the seriously addicted poacher. It would force poachers to do their own sieving of each range, and select exponents 'blindly'. I suppose they could put long lists of sieved primes from each range in their todo file, hoping they don't waste too much time on bogus exponents.

(Does the server tell you an exponent is invalid when prime95 checks in? -- And even if it does, it removes valid exponents assigned to others unless you've already started on it, right? And if you've started, will it still tell you its bogus? I guess this wouldn't work if the current version validates exponents for the user.)

(edit)
Hmm, we probably need to make sure that an individual user can tell apart his/her own exponents in each range. They would still be in numerical order, but having to deduce which was which by listed order or assignment date is not acceptable.
(/edit)

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by garo

I think, cheesehead, we have to remember that there are status reports on George's status page, namely LUCAS_V.TXT and HRF3.TXT from which would be poachers can anyway get all the information they need

LUCAS_V.TXT and HRF3.TXT have information on current assignments that are incomplete (which are the poachable assignments)?!? I've been perusing them quite a while but never noticed that. Exactly what data on current, in-progress, not-yet-completed assignments do they contain?

even if the status.txt were eliminated.

What is it with this elimination-of-status.txt stuff? You're the second to bring that up, but a careful re-reading of my previous posts in this thread will show that my proposal does not eliminate status.txt. It just trims it. Sheesh.

I argue that eliminating status.txt will turn some type-1 and type-2 poachers into type-3 while not really cutting down on type-3 poachers at all causing more harm to the project than good.

So ... don't eliminate status.txt.

And by the way, no one has yet presented any evidence on this thread that type-3 poachers exist. If such evidence exists elsewhere, please point me to it.

You say that it will stop all type-1 and type-2 poaching

NO, I DIDN'T!!!

Will you guys please carefully read my previous posts before attributing extreme statements to me?

What I actually wrote was: "What I claim is that it denies poachers the information that I think they currently use to select straggling assignments (i.e., type-1 or type-2) to poach."

- - - - -

To everyone:

I did not make an extreme claim about stopping ALL Type-1 or Type-2 poaching. If you think I did, please tell me exactly where that claim is so that I can go back to correct it. If you're not sure you understand my previous posts, ask for a clarification rather than attributing stuff falsely. If you're just exaggerating and distorting my proposal because you can't think of any legitimate objection, stop wasting forum space.

Ahem. I'll try to calm down now.

- - - - -

and do nothing for type-3 poaching.

Care to present us any evidence that any type-3 poaching actually exists? If not, then maybe doing nothing ("don't fix what ain't broken") about type-3 poaching is appropriate.

What is a given though is the fact that eliminating status.txt or even just the fields you mentioned will definitely reduce the "fun" aspect of the project for several people. And that's not just the poachers

"not just the poachers"? not _just the poachers_??

Actually, I _want_ to reduce the poachers' fun INSOFAR AS that fun involves poaching other peoples' assignments.

And if you've read my previous posts carefully, you've seen my proposals for enabling legitimate fun to go on.

but people like me, trif, dswanson and several others who don't poach but look forward to all the info status.txt gives them, keep old records and can tell you today who poached and when etc. etc. among other things.

... and, if all people like you and the others will carefully read my previous posts, you will find that I proposed two specific solutions to enable you to continue doing that.

This curtailing of public stats information will drive participants away

Why, other than the poachers?

and not bring them in if my expreience as a DCer in the past three years tells me anything.

But poaching already drives participants away and does not bring them in (unless it brings in poachers, eh?).

More stats=good.

Less poaching=good. Current universal stats availability enables poaching=bad.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by outlnder

How to choose which ones need to be done??

Easy, the lowest 50. Period. When I completed those, then the next lowest 50, etc, etc, etc.

That's what I was saying. IF one wants to poach the trailing edge, all one has to do is grab the lowest exponents on ANY report!!

Do you have any evidence that a significant fraction of past or current poaching fits into this category?

[outlnder]

If you look back to the first post and page, this is how this topic got started. We were discussing the poachers that do the trailing edge work and how to stop them.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Maybeso

What if the status reports masked each exponents last N digits, or in some other way?

A great and preferable alternative, _IF_ it would inhibit poaching.

Masking the exponent would stop all but the seriously addicted poacher.

Could depend on the meaning of "seriously". Without having done any detailed analysis, my first impression is that masking only the final four digits wouldn't seriously hinder _me_ if I were to switch to the Dark Side. (note to self: Do The Analysis before further comment on this.)

It would force poachers to do their own sieving of each range, and select exponents 'blindly'. I suppose they could put long lists of sieved primes from each range in their todo file, hoping they don't waste too much time on bogus exponents.

A common theme running through responses to my proposal seems to indicate that objectors are assuming that a significant number of poachers _are_ so addicted to poaching that they _will_ go to significant extra effort to continue poaching, even if forced to do so more "blindly" and inefficiently. Wow.

(Does the server tell you an exponent is invalid when prime95 checks in?

It tells you if the exponent is not currently assigned to you (regardless of cause), I think. In my experience, it doesn't actively tell you whether your (if you are a poachee) first-time LL assignment has been converted to a DC assignment, but you can look that up in your report if you think to do so.

(edit)
Hmm, we probably need to make sure that an individual user can tell apart his/her own exponents in each range. They would still be in numerical order, but having to deduce which was which by listed order or assignment date is not acceptable.
(/edit)

Well, my proposal is to leave the private password-protected individual account reports unchanged, so those would still show full information about one's own legitimate assignments.

[Prime95]

Ahhhh..... Nothing like a discussion on poaching to get ones blood boiling :)

This is probably due to Malfoy's recent binge (BTW Malfoy did not give an email address for his user id). I sure hope his binge is over now that the M#38 milestone is on the verge of completing.

I kind of liked the idea of masking the lower 4 digits of the smallest 50 exponents in the public report. It would be up to Scott Kurowski to decide as he's the one with access to the Primenet server. If Malfoy's poaching continues we will have to ask him to do this. Yes, you can get the information in other ways but it is a little bit harder.

Also note that cheesehead seems to demonstrate the point that a poachee will not be happy with giving him the CPU credit. I get the distinct impression that if I credit him with 5 CPU years he will not become a happy camper.

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by outlnder

If you look back to the first post and page, this is how this topic got started. We were discussing the poachers that do the trailing edge work and how to stop them.

Oh, I see now. I had interpreted your "the lowest 50. Period." example from another viewpoint, and didn't recognize that it was sufficiently parallel to what was at thread top.

Hmmm ... hmmm ...

I withdraw my current proposal!

[cheesehead]

Originally Posted by Prime95

Also note that cheesehead seems to demonstrate the point that a poachee will not be happy with giving him the CPU credit.

Verily, your insight is keen, sir. What hath been destroyed cannot be restored.

Only prevention of that vile deed will suffice.

After Pandora opened the box of ills, she managed to close it on only Hope.

Hope.

Hope is the ultimate sustenance of life, of one's will to live.

And Hope is what the Vile Poacher doth destroy.

I get the distinct impression that if I credit him with 5 CPU years he will not become a happy camper.

Nay, sir, not if you were to offer fifty times five or even fifty times fifty times five CPU years would that be even the slightest just recompense for my loss, for my loss cannot be measured in CPU years.

[outlnder]

Cheesehead please don't get me wrong. Your proposals were very good and should be implemented on the new server.

I compliment you on the thought process you developed to deal with this discouraging problem. Personnaly, I was hoping for a more stringent revelation from the ultimate power.

I like the idea that a poached return would be completely ignored by the server. Maybe could be used as a "No credit" Double Check. Then a poacher might get the idea that their contribution was not wanted nor accepted.

Or even a more punitive punishment.