Tomb of debate - Page 11

Batalov · 2019-04-27, 18:05

I don't think Paul will be read to leave just yet, after reading the latest discussion. I think this discussion is finally raising from its tomb.

I can throw some more gas on fire. I think in large part the perceived weaknesses of this forum are actually married to its strengths. To wit, this is a very free forum; no opinions are suppressed (spam and hate speech only). It is not a propaganda machine to channel every computer owner into running exclusively mprime/prime95, as if running a business and in parallel running a mass media that explains how this is the only business to consider.

To give you an example, people can freely say "I have found this less engaging then trying that. Who would like to join me in running that?" They get their own subforum. They start running that. That's what's happening in this forum. ...Yeah, actually sometimes they will get an advice (perhaps, not in the tone of voice that they would rather prefer; it could be sarcastic, it could be a joke, but it will be, in essence, help--) "hold on, have you thought about this and that obstacle on the way? Don't run it just yet"; then someone else will add: "I found this problem interesting and I mucked about with it; here's how we can remove the obstacle and move forward" etc etc

There are some other forums where valid messages are deleted when they are perceived to be against their "business" (which is taking people's resources for free). Without discussion. And because - obviously, there are no ripples on the water, for every observer - the water is perfectly still in that pond. It is interesting that (because they probably think it's ok) they suppress messages and then (perhaps a year later) - they would ask for an expert opinion on the same matter by PM! Amazing doublethink! And what do you think happens - that forum is exactly like the USSR; people only discuss their credit and scout badges ad nauseum, and there are quasi-governmental report threads of the achievements of the last quarter, of the last year; and how much more credits we produced this year against the same period of the last year. Amazing social experiment! I love it. It should be used a subject matter in appropriate classes: "here is what happens when you rule with a whip - you do it for a while, and you get this." Don't get me wrong - thousands of happy users there. But then again, don't forget, there were millions of happy people in the USSR as well. For sure. There are millions of happy people in North Korea, too, right now, just as we speak.

One thing I learned from my father (and other people) - people who criticize your ideas are already helping you. Whether you like the form or the tone or not.

a1call · 2019-04-27, 18:19

Personally, I do appreciate the freedom but not the ridicule. IMHO it serves no purpose and nothing is gained by it. Its only outcome is bad feelings and bad blood. What can be done about it?
Not much. We can just sit back and observe the correlation between those who ridicule others at every chance they get and their deep-rooted ailments referenced (sometimes between the lines and other times literally) in other posts and threads.

chalsall · 2019-04-27, 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1call

Personally, I do appreciate the freedom but not the ridicule. IMHO it serves no purpose and nothing is gained by it. Its only outcome is bad feelings and bad blood. What can be done about it?

I respectfully disagree.

Being able to present ideas and have them deeply criticized by very knowledgeable people is very important to my (and many's) work.

I ***want*** to know if I'm incorrect as soon as possible. This is so that I don't make stupid (and possibly expensive) mistakes.

Nothing personal. Just tell me the way (you think) I am wrong, and I will consider. And I will thank you for that.

jnml · 2019-04-27, 18:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1call

Its only outcome is bad feelings and bad blood.

Feelings are IMO overrated. There's no right to be offended by anything one chooses.

Also: If reading letters on a monitor _really_ hurts someone - maybe she should not read them
in the first place because of that condition?

a1call · 2019-04-27, 18:37

Here is a tale about the Soviet era which has nothing to do with this thread or mathematics. So sue me.

I have been told that elementary school students would be taken under some bridge and their teachers would tell them to look up and say:
"God give us candies."

after a few minutes of nothing happening, the teachers would then ask the students to say:

"Lenin (or Stalin) give us candies."

After which candies would be thrown down from the bridge.

Batalov · 2019-04-27, 18:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by a1call

Personally, I do appreciate the freedom but not the ridicule. IMHO it serves no purpose and nothing is gained by it. Its only outcome is bad feelings and bad blood. What can be done about it?
Not much. We can just sit back and observe the correlation between those who ridicule others at every chance they get and their deep-rooted ailments referenced (sometimes between the lines and other times literally) in other posts and threads.

True. but that's the thing. -- When there is no object of ridicule and everyone is only discussing the yesterday's issue of "Pravda" - there will be no ridicule!

Once everyone is free to say all they want, there are tons of absolutely justified objects for laughter. "I solved the the twin prime conjecter" !! "I solved Golbach!" "Formula for mersennes found!!!" What can one do to maintain sanity? It is very natural to laugh. In fact, most of the the discussion of this kind are literally under the dictionary definition of a joke.

Always consider - was the person who laughed laughing at the joke, or at the person?
(Scroll back to googling about "takes everything personal")

xilman · 2019-04-27, 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by jnml

Feelings are IMO overrated. There's no right to be offended by anything one chooses.

Also: If reading letters on a monitor _really_ hurts someone - maybe she should not read them
in the first place because of that condition?

As I've observed on MF in the past, offen[cs]e is in the mind of the offended.

Another, rather older, English language proverb is "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

Another one I've used: if you can't stand the heat get out of the sauna.

IMO, anyone is welcome to come here (apart from spammers) but no-one is required to stay. I most emphatically am not requiring that anyone else here must hold the same opinion.

chalsall · 2019-04-27, 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by xilman

IMO, anyone is welcome to come here (apart from spammers) but no-one is required to stay. I most emphatically am not requiring that anyone else here must hold the same opinion.

Thank you for that.

My very best junior had only a high-school diploma (as did I).

He and I often had heated arguments, while we were under attack. Seriously.

Batalov · 2019-04-28, 17:13

Another serious thread was just renamed ...and it is oh so subtle. I wouldn't notice it, if it didn't include the name of one of my favorite music artists.

lukerichards · 2019-04-29, 15:16

I've been on vacation the past few days and unable to read all the replies thoroughly.

Having just done so, I think there's still a lot I disagree with, in particular the idea that 'codes of conduct' are a bad thing per se. However, I can see a lot of merit in the general thrust of what a lot of you have been saying, even if there's not much common ground between us at the moment.

Perhaps now is the time to leave it here. It seemed my initial reason for the thread was about the tone of debate on the forum as a whole. While this attracted some adverse discussion, I think there was nonetheless a worthwhile discussion. What's more I genuinely feel even in the few weeks that have passed that the tone of debate has improved massively. Take 'the formula' thread for example!

It seems however that hardly anyone is with me on the thread renaming and even more issues seem to be coming out of a much more detailed discussion, so I'll pick up my two cents and leave it there.

Might be worth mods considering whether the thread could or should be locked. It seems to me that all who wish to say their piece have done so.

xilman · 2019-04-29, 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lukerichards

... the tone of debate has improved massively. Take 'the formula' thread for example!

Perhaps so. The ridicule has become markedly more subtle, but just as barbed and just as present. In my opinion, of course.

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2019-04-27, 18:05	#111
Batalov "Serge" Mar 2008 Phi(4,2^7658614+1)/2 2×7×677 Posts	I don't think Paul will be read to leave just yet, after reading the latest discussion. I think this discussion is finally raising from its tomb. I can throw some more gas on fire. I think in large part the perceived weaknesses of this forum are actually married to its strengths. To wit, this is a very free forum; no opinions are suppressed (spam and hate speech only). It is not a propaganda machine to channel every computer owner into running exclusively mprime/prime95, as if running a business and in parallel running a mass media that explains how this is the only business to consider. To give you an example, people can freely say "I have found this less engaging then trying that. Who would like to join me in running that?" They get their own subforum. They start running that. That's what's happening in this forum. ...Yeah, actually sometimes they will get an advice (perhaps, not in the tone of voice that they would rather prefer; it could be sarcastic, it could be a joke, but it will be, in essence, help--) "hold on, have you thought about this and that obstacle on the way? Don't run it just yet"; then someone else will add: "I found this problem interesting and I mucked about with it; here's how we can remove the obstacle and move forward" etc etc There are some other forums where valid messages are deleted when they are perceived to be against their "business" (which is taking people's resources for free). Without discussion. And because - obviously, there are no ripples on the water, for every observer - the water is perfectly still in that pond. It is interesting that (because they probably think it's ok) they suppress messages and then (perhaps a year later) - they would ask for an expert opinion on the same matter by PM! Amazing doublethink! And what do you think happens - that forum is exactly like the USSR; people only discuss their credit and scout badges ad nauseum, and there are quasi-governmental report threads of the achievements of the last quarter, of the last year; and how much more credits we produced this year against the same period of the last year. Amazing social experiment! I love it. It should be used a subject matter in appropriate classes: "here is what happens when you rule with a whip - you do it for a while, and you get this." Don't get me wrong - thousands of happy users there. But then again, don't forget, there were millions of happy people in the USSR as well. For sure. There are millions of happy people in North Korea, too, right now, just as we speak. One thing I learned from my father (and other people) - people who criticize your ideas are already helping you. Whether you like the form or the tone or not.

2019-04-27, 18:19	#112
a1call "Rashid Naimi" Oct 2015 Remote to Here/There 4007₈ Posts	Personally, I do appreciate the freedom but not the ridicule. IMHO it serves no purpose and nothing is gained by it. Its only outcome is bad feelings and bad blood. What can be done about it? Not much. We can just sit back and observe the correlation between those who ridicule others at every chance they get and their deep-rooted ailments referenced (sometimes between the lines and other times literally) in other posts and threads.

2019-04-27, 18:37	#115
a1call "Rashid Naimi" Oct 2015 Remote to Here/There 3×5×137 Posts	Here is a tale about the Soviet era which has nothing to do with this thread or mathematics. So sue me. I have been told that elementary school students would be taken under some bridge and their teachers would tell them to look up and say: "God give us candies." after a few minutes of nothing happening, the teachers would then ask the students to say: "Lenin (or Stalin) give us candies." After which candies would be thrown down from the bridge.

2019-04-28, 17:13	#119
Batalov "Serge" Mar 2008 Phi(4,2^7658614+1)/2 2×7×677 Posts	Another serious thread was just renamed ...and it is oh so subtle. I wouldn't notice it, if it didn't include the name of one of my favorite music artists.

2019-04-29, 15:16	#120
lukerichards "Luke Richards" Jan 2018 Birmingham, UK 2⁵×3² Posts	I've been on vacation the past few days and unable to read all the replies thoroughly. Having just done so, I think there's still a lot I disagree with, in particular the idea that 'codes of conduct' are a bad thing per se. However, I can see a lot of merit in the general thrust of what a lot of you have been saying, even if there's not much common ground between us at the moment. Perhaps now is the time to leave it here. It seemed my initial reason for the thread was about the tone of debate on the forum as a whole. While this attracted some adverse discussion, I think there was nonetheless a worthwhile discussion. What's more I genuinely feel even in the few weeks that have passed that the tone of debate has improved massively. Take 'the formula' thread for example! It seems however that hardly anyone is with me on the thread renaming and even more issues seem to be coming out of a much more detailed discussion, so I'll pick up my two cents and leave it there. Might be worth mods considering whether the thread could or should be locked. It seems to me that all who wish to say their piece have done so.