Worldwide Nightmare Theatre, Empire of Chaos Enhanced and Expanded

[kladner]

Fascinating. "Taliban" "students," is derived from "talib," https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban
The CIA exploited these fundamentalist students of Pakistani Madrasas to attack the Soviet forces during THAT invasion. Some of those Stinger missiles came back to haunt the US Coalition invasion forces.
EDIT: Correction: The Taliban were initially deployed against the Soviet supported government in Afghanistan. This led to the Soviet invasion of the country, which had Zbiggy crowing to President Carter that they had given the Soviets "their own Vietnam."

[LaurV]

Rambo 3, anyone?

[kladner]

I have been expecting such a reported attack, hyped by the NYT, and "documented" by the White Helmets, aka Syrian Civil Defense, aka "Our (Subsidized) Good Insurgents."
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/08/w...ck-ghouta.html
Once again, an alleged chemical attack, in a rebel area which is about to fall to government forces, which is blamed on the Syrian government. As always, the Big Question should be "Cui Bono?". As in all previous cases, the "humanitarian," "activist" White helmets have been at Ground Zero, providing informative media coverage of alleged dead children. Once again, the only protective gear seen is loosely fitted dust masks, which would be exactly useless if military grade nerve agents were in the vicinity. They aren't even wearing gloves as they handle victims. I have to wonder, who is doing the victimizing here?
I got past the NYT firewall, this time. Body of article is attached. Nevermind. Libre Office .doc files are rejected as "invalid."

[Dr Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by kladner

I have been expecting such a reported attack, hyped by the NYT, and "documented" by the White Helmets, aka Syrian Civil Defense, aka "Our (Subsidized) Good Insurgents."
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/08/w...ck-ghouta.html
As always, the Big Question should be "Cui Bono?".

Sounds like Putin, Assad & Co. benefit -- they take the area.

By actually reading the article, I find that what is alleged is probably chlorine gas, delivered by crude bombs. That is certainly plausible.

What is not plausible is, a staged attack one one's own people, followed immediately by giving up the stronghold they were in to the enemy. That just doesn't make sense. If the rebels had chemical agents, and had decided it was time to bug out, it would have made a lot more sense to use them on their enemies to cover a retreat.

In any case, it does put Il Duce on the spot. He had previously reacted to an alleged chemical attack on kids with an outrage he, being a narcissist, is certainly not capable of. After all, they weren't his kids. And we certainly can't be allowing refugees in from a hole country like Syria, especially since they're Muslims, right? So perhaps he'll act cross and lob a few more missiles.

But all the chorine in the world wouldn't be enough to bleach the brown off Il Duce's nose, when it comes to his attitude toward Vladimir Putin.

[kladner]

What is not plausible is, a staged attack one one's own people, followed immediately by giving up the stronghold they were in to the enemy. That just doesn't make sense. If the rebels had chemical agents, and had decided it was time to bug out, it would have made a lot more sense to use them on their enemies to cover a retreat.

What make sense for the hold-out groups is to make sure the US and Co stay in Syria.
Once again, we are told by highly involved parties that an attack took place. The story is supposedly supported by photos and videos provided by said parties. Note this caption,
"Footage said to show medical workers in Douma treating victims of the attack." -Reuters
Also, consider limited information being available,

It was not possible to independently verify the reports because Douma is surrounded by Syrian government forces, which prevent access by journalists, aid workers and investigators.

Again, explain previous incidents, assumed to involve nerve agents, in which the photos provided do not support the presence of such chemicals.

Your idea of "what makes sense" is not very sensible. The government is winning. They don't need the bad press of using chemical weapons. However, those who are loosing have a great deal to gain if the government is (automatically) blamed for any such action.

Using such actions against military forces does not have the same total effect as pictures of dead or unconscious children. Also, It is an easy ploy to tape oxygen masks and EKG leads to children whose actual condition is unknown. The publicity is far more important strategically than any tactical benefit which might be derived by attacking troops with gas.

There are some similar elements to previous allegations. There are no videos of the attack. "Government helicopters drop bombs at night. Trust us! We are the White Hat Helmet Good Guys."

We have been led down this garden path before.

[Dr Sardonicus]

Originally Posted by kladner

What make sense for the hold-out groups is to make sure the US and Co stay in Syria.

Why? The "US and CO" haven't been doing diddly-squat against Putin & Co that I can see. (My theory is, once the rebellion is crushed, Assad will be at best a Putin vassal, but IMO more likely "out of the picture.")

Do you consider the Kurds to be a "hold out group?" It looks like Il Duce wants to abandon them to the tender mercies of the Turks.

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus

It looks like Il Duce wants to abandon them to the tender mercies of the Turks.

This is a *very* tricky situation.

It would be good if the player knew how to play Go or Poker. Unfortunately he doesn't even appear to understand checkers let alone chess; just bulling and bluster got him though his day previously....

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by kladner

Your idea of "what makes sense" is not very sensible. The government is winning. They don't need the bad press of using chemical weapons. However, those who are loosing have a great deal to gain if the government is (automatically) blamed for any such action.

I hear what you are saying.

Why would someone who is winning do something stupid, like using chemical weapons?

All of the videos of those children choking and being washed down with water were not time stamped, nor independently verified.

Why might this be done then? A misinformation campaign ("fake news")? Justifying a missile attack on an airfield?

May we live in interesting times....

[ewmayer]

Originally Posted by Dr Sardonicus

What is not plausible is, a staged attack one one's own people, followed immediately by giving up the stronghold they were in to the enemy. That just doesn't make sense. If the rebels had chemical agents, and had decided it was time to bug out, it would have made a lot more sense to use them on their enemies to cover a retreat.

It makes perfect sense if one's home-brewed chem weapons are as crude as you describe and thus highly unlikely to have any military effectiveness against advancing, disciplined forces who can fire back. In that case it makes perfect sense to try to get the US and Israel to continue to play their role as the jihadists' best friend by deploying one's crude weapon against a fixed target in form of the local civilian populace and making sure lots of cameras and "desperate aid workers" are on hand to provoke outrage in the West. I.e. classic false-flag "PR bomb". If you want a perspective from a more-authoritative source, here is Scott Ritter: "the United States has not backed up its own claims with anything other than a recitation of accusations made by rebel groups."

Your DNC-talking-points comments re. Syria, Russia and "Trump a Putin puppet" are so ill-informed as to be barely dignifiable with a reply - as a point of fact Russia and Syria have a longstanding diplomatic and security relatonship. Further, after the U.S. and Co. assured Russia a few years back that they were not seeking regime change in Libya only to renege and turn that nation into a jihadist hellhole, it's understandable that Russia was not about to allow the same to happen in Syria.

Further, if any foreign leader has Trump dancing to his string-pulling it is Israel's Netanyahu - "US embassy in jerusalem", anyone?

Concerning Syria, Trump last Tuesday said “I want to get out,” promising to pull U.S. troops out very soon, but was quickly brought to heel by pressure from Congress and a phone call from Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that compelled him to change his mind within 24 hours.

Israel wants chaos in Syria and its instrument of choice is the American military. Netanyahu has Congress to do his bidding and appears to also have Trump under his thumb.

May I suggest you peddle that sort of counterfactual rubbish over at Daily Kos?

[kladner]

The Kurds have, once again, been dismissed and discarded by foreign powers in the Middle East. The heart of today's conflicts goes back to the colonial powers' division of the region. See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%...icot_Agreement
Within this article, see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes%...ment#The_Kurds
The boundaries created did not reflect the various peoples involved.

[chalsall]

Originally Posted by ewmayer

May I suggest you peddle that sort of counterfactual rubbish over at Daily Kos?

Or, perhaps, here...

It is simple to make a very bad gas anywhere consumer products are available.

Mixing chlorine bleach with vinegar is a really bad idea, for example....