Engine-assisted game vs Stockfish, move 6 discussion

MooMoo2 · 2016-10-08, 21:52

The most popular move on the move 5 poll was ...Nc6. Stockfish played 6. Ndb5, and the FEN is:
r1bqkb1r/pp1p1ppp/2n1pn2/1N6/4P3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKB1R b KQkq - 4 6

Game so far: 1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Ndb5

Depth: 46 ply. Nodes searched: 583,679,655,843 (~584 G)

firejuggler · 2016-10-09, 03:50

I would suggest to move the bishop or the queen, but hey, i'm not a good player.

LaurV · 2016-10-09, 15:00

There are no good queen moves we can do. Qc7 we lose the queen, Qe7 we lose the rook (and he destroys our castling too, very bad!). Qb6 we just give him two moves for free, because after Be3 we need to put it back (to keep the control of Nc7+) or on a5, and lose a move and half (he has the sente now). We may do Qa5 now, but white still has a lot of attack there, like Bf4, etc. Actually, after Qa5 Bd2, we have to put it back to d8. If we move something else after Bd2, white has an extremely strong attach with Nd5, bishop attacks queen in a5, and after we move the queen or put our bishop in front at b4, he has Nbc7+ and rook is gone as well as the game. I don't think that any queen move is good now, and I don't even need any engine for it.

6..Bb4 looks good for us, I would play it without thinking, in a face to face game.

The database indicates 6...d6 as the best move now, by far, and I do not exactly understand why.

We need a deeper analysis here. With the engine too, of course.

edit: what your engines say? Time to start them?

WMHalsdorf · 2016-10-09, 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurV

There are no good queen moves we can do. Qc7 we lose the queen, Qe7 we lose the rook (and he destroys our castling too, very bad!). Qb6 we just give him two moves for free, because after Be3 we need to put it back (to keep the control of Nc7+) or on a5, and lose a move and half (he has the sente now). We may do Qa5 now, but white still has a lot of attack there, like Bf4, etc. Actually, after Qa5 Bd2, we have to put it back to d8. If we move something else after Bd2, white has an extremely strong attach with Nd5, bishop attacks queen in a5, and after we move the queen or put our bishop in front at b4, he has Nbc7+ and rook is gone as well as the game. I don't think that any queen move is good now, and I don't even need any engine for it.

6..Bb4 looks good for us, I would play it without thinking, in a face to face game.

The database indicates 6...d6 as the best move now, by far, and I do not exactly understand why.

We need a deeper analysis here. With the engine too, of course.

edit: what your engines say? Time to start them?

I agree with your assessment of the position.

henryzz · 2016-10-09, 22:11

But 6...Bb4 leads to us exchanging our bishop that is less blocked in for one of their knights. Conventional wisdom suggests that is a bad move. The databases agree.

firejuggler · 2016-10-09, 23:02

maybe because d6 allow more movement for the king?
it doesn't look like a defensive nor offensive move.

WMHalsdorf · 2016-10-10, 12:48

After looking at some games it appears to me that 6...d6 prolongs the middle game with the prospect of getting a more favorable endgame. It appears the SF is a netter tactical player than a positional player and with that in mind 6...d6 would be the better of the two moves proposed.

henryzz · 2016-10-10, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by firejuggler

maybe because d6 allow more movement for the king?
it doesn't look like a defensive nor offensive move.

Currently d6 is a weakness due to us not being able to attack it with a pawn. d6 means that we have two pieces attacking that square(queen, bishop) instead of one(bishop). This means that he can't take the pawn. d6 would otherwise be a good outpost for his knight. If we were to do e5, d5 would also become a weakness for the same reason. Again black often strengthens the square by the move d5.
Since stockfish has placed his knight on b5 which is one move away from d6, I would prefer to stop stockfish from doing Nd6+ next turn.

LaurV · 2016-10-11, 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by henryzz

Currently d6 (square) is a weakness due to us not being able to attack it with a pawn. d6 (move) means that we have two pieces attacking that square(queen, bishop) instead of one(bishop)

Yes, very good point.

2016-10-08, 21:52	#1
MooMoo2 Aug 2010 267₁₆ Posts	Engine-assisted game vs Stockfish, move 6 discussion The most popular move on the move 5 poll was ...Nc6. Stockfish played 6. Ndb5, and the FEN is: r1bqkb1r/pp1p1ppp/2n1pn2/1N6/4P3/2N5/PPP2PPP/R1BQKB1R b KQkq - 4 6 Game so far: 1.e4 c5 2. Nf3 e6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. Nc3 Nc6 6. Ndb5 Depth: 46 ply. Nodes searched: 583,679,655,843 (~584 G) Attached Thumbnails

2016-10-09, 15:00	#3
LaurV Romulan Interpreter Jun 2011 Thailand 5²×7×53 Posts	There are no good queen moves we can do. Qc7 we lose the queen, Qe7 we lose the rook (and he destroys our castling too, very bad!). Qb6 we just give him two moves for free, because after Be3 we need to put it back (to keep the control of Nc7+) or on a5, and lose a move and half (he has the sente now). We may do Qa5 now, but white still has a lot of attack there, like Bf4, etc. Actually, after Qa5 Bd2, we have to put it back to d8. If we move something else after Bd2, white has an extremely strong attach with Nd5, bishop attacks queen in a5, and after we move the queen or put our bishop in front at b4, he has Nbc7+ and rook is gone as well as the game. I don't think that any queen move is good now, and I don't even need any engine for it. 6..Bb4 looks good for us, I would play it without thinking, in a face to face game. The database indicates 6...d6 as the best move now, by far, and I do not exactly understand why. We need a deeper analysis here. With the engine too, of course. edit: what your engines say? Time to start them? Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2016-10-09 at 15:08

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2016-10-09, 03:50	#2
firejuggler Apr 2010 Over the rainbow 2·5·11·23 Posts	I would suggest to move the bishop or the queen, but hey, i'm not a good player.

2016-10-09, 22:11	#5
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Cambridge (GMT/BST) 5,821 Posts	But 6...Bb4 leads to us exchanging our bishop that is less blocked in for one of their knights. Conventional wisdom suggests that is a bad move. The databases agree.

2016-10-09, 23:02	#6
firejuggler Apr 2010 Over the rainbow 2·5·11·23 Posts	maybe because d6 allow more movement for the king? it doesn't look like a defensive nor offensive move.

2016-10-10, 12:48	#7
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 1000000001₂ Posts	After looking at some games it appears to me that 6...d6 prolongs the middle game with the prospect of getting a more favorable endgame. It appears the SF is a netter tactical player than a positional player and with that in mind 6...d6 would be the better of the two moves proposed.