Move 38 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish

[LaurV]

Originally Posted by Dubslow

Then why did you

Haha, you made me go and look! And you are right, I voted for it.
Only... that was not me, the trolls played with the voting poll.
Few minutes after my former post I looked to the poll and the second person voting for the move (beside of sm88) was Xyzzy. I guess he is playing with the votes, which I consider a good joke as long as the result of the poll is not affected. At least, this time was a good joke, even if the subject of the joke was me, haha, you (and him) made me to go there to see if I voted by mistake. And I was biting it! But as Xyzzy disappeared, it is clear what happened...

(note to self, I have to go back to the former moves to see for which other strange alternative paths of the game I voted... )

[Brian-E]

I hope I'm just being argumentative for the sake of it, and we don't get any mass voting for 38.Nh6+?? in the next 24 hours, but I would like it on record that the endgame K+R+g and h pawns vs K+R+N+h pawn is a clear technical win for Black, and not a very difficult one, if Black can hold the h pawn - which he can in this case.

[MooMoo2]

Originally Posted by LaurV

I agree with you that is not the best move, but the game is still playable, it is not the end of the world if you play it. Of course the other moves in the list are much better. I "accidentally" had a look to that move yesterday night, after I saw it in the list, and that was after reading WMH's post. I was intrigued why the move is still in the list, when it was clear it is bad for white, eventually ending with a mate. So I had a deeper look to it (and no, I did not use SF this time). The game will still be playable, and will still result in a draw, but we may play with a horse less, and getting the draw would be more difficult. But is not an easy black win. Anyhow, I would not vote for it, in a thousand years.

Details: if 38 Nh6+, black must Kh8, otherwise, if Kf8 we can bring the second rook into the fray, and having a clear draw with 39. Rxf6+ Ke8 40 Re6+ Kd8 41. Nf7+ Nxf7 42. Rxf7 Rg2 43. Kf1 Rxh2 44. Kg1 Rhg2+ 45 Kf1 Rgd2 Rfe7 and we have eternal check.

So, 38 Nh6+, Kh8, and the only move we can play now to avoid the mate is 39 Nf7+, Nxf7, and we can't take the black horse due to mate threat (as described by WMH before), therefore 40. Rxf6 Rc1 (or a1, he can't take the pawn in h2 because loses the horse), 41. Rf1 and from here, god knows... maybe Rxf1+ 42. Kxf1 Kg7 43 h3, and we play a pawn against a horse. It is not a clear black win, but neither an easy "white" draw...

I would not vote for 38 Nh6+, for sure.

Couldn't resist taking a closer look at this before I pack my bags.

It seems that 38. Nh6+ is playable after all, and the best line seems to be 38. ...Kh8, 39. Nf7+ Nxf7 40. Rxf6 Ra1+ 41. Rf1 Rxf1+ 42. Kxf1 (the position is below. Black to move, which will likely be Nd6)

SF's evaluation of the position is stable, ranging from +1.1 pawns to +1.2 pawns for black. White should be able to get a draw out of this if both sides play perfectly, but it'll be quite tough.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by MooMoo2

White should be able to get a draw out of this if both sides play perfectly, but it'll be quite tough.

What do you base that statement on? (I respectfully suggest that the software evaluation in number-of-pawns-advantage has little meaning in a technical position like this - if that is your basis for saying that White should draw.)

Anyway, I disagree with the assessment. Unless White has some tactical way of forcing the exchange of the black h pawn which I have overlooked, we have an endgame where Black will be able to put White under increasing pressure until the White pawns fall.

If anyone thinks they can draw the endgame against me, I'd be interested in taking them on with the Black pieces in a correspondence situation - maybe by exchange of PMs here on mersenneforum.org. Any takers?

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

What do you base that statement on? (I respectfully suggest that the software evaluation in number-of-pawns-advantage has little meaning in a technical position like this - if that is your basis for saying that White should draw.)

Anyway, I disagree with the assessment. Unless White has some tactical way of forcing the exchange of the black h pawn which I have overlooked, we have an endgame where Black will be able to put White under increasing pressure until the White pawns fall.

If anyone thinks they can draw the endgame against me, I'd be interested in taking them on with the Black pieces in a correspondence situation - maybe by exchange of PMs here on mersenneforum.org. Any takers?

if I wasn't slacking off when I should be preparing to move to a new place I might try against you.

[LaurV]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Any takers?

That's really tempting.

I should lift the glove, as sm88 who proposed it, is "incapacitated" and I am the one who jumped to defend it.

For sure black has to take care of that horse now, otherwise it is clearly a draw, or it may even be a white win. "Taking care" of the horse, is either defending it, or moving it away. Defending it in g8 is bad, as white goes for the black pawn which now can't be anymore saved, therefore draw. Moving it anywhere except d6 is also a fast draw, white goes for the pawn. Checking the white king (Rc1) won't help (actually it helps white). So, it is either Kg7, or Nd6. Both a "good moves", first defends the horse and it can save the pawn with Kg6 or Kh6 in case white rook goes for the pawn, and the second scares off the rook, threatening in the same time b5, so the rook can't go for the (now undefended) pawn. In the first case, the rook can still go for the pawn, forcing the next 5-6 moves, and in the second case, the rook can go for the horse, again forcing the next 5-6 moves (the horse must go d6-f5-g7, otherwise the pawn is lost).

So, the black pawn is the diamond of the position here, if white can take it without losing the rook, then it is a draw. Can he?

Looking to the two versions for almost an hour, in one of them white can force capturing the pawn in 10 moves or so.
If I can find an exit for the second, I am your man...

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by LaurV

If I can find an exit for the second, I am your man...

Sounds good. Send me a PM if you decide you want to try it out. That goes for anyone else too.
One request on my part: I won't be using any engine help (I don't even have an engine, and that is deliberate because I don't want to be tempted ever to use it in my CC games), and so I'd appreciate it if anyone who takes me on doesn't use software help either.