Move 24 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish - Page 2

WMHalsdorf · 2016-03-03, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Till

24. Rb1 Nc4 looks strong to avoid some stuff but can be countered with
25. Rb4

EDIT:
Then we can get
25. ... Ne3
26. Rb4xf4 Ne3xd5
27. Rd4 ?

Hm, still difficult...

A better reply for black would be 25...Re8 (more agressive) or 25...h5 (more defensive)

gd_barnes · 2016-03-03, 21:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

24.Rb1 Nc4 25. Rad1 Rxf5 26. Rxf1 Ne3 27. Rdf1 the resulting position is not as easy to defend as 24.g3

Your line has some notation errors. Let me restate what I think your intent is:
24. Rb1 Nc4
25. Rbd1 Rxf5
26. Rxf5 Ne3
27. Rdf1.
Assuming this is your intent, after 27...Nxf5 28. Rxf5 I agree that the resulting position is very tough to defend. This is not good.

Below are some lines that I came up with for 24. Rb1:
24. Rb1 Nc4
25. Rb4 Re8! threatening mate
26. h3 h5
27. a4 Re2
...bad bad 24. Rb1 followed by 25. Rb4 does not work.

We need to drive away the g4 rook to prevent the potential mate threat resulting from Re8 (to keep our 1st-rank rook free to move) and so that we can free up our d5 rook. We could try:

24. Rb1 Nc4
25. g3 Re4
26. Rd7 Rd2

The problem with this line is that we have effectively forced black to place his knight on the better square at Nc4 by playing 24. Rb1. By doing so he protects his b6 pawn and keeps us from playing the very strong Rd6.

24. Rb1 creates more complications than are necessary for us. I think that 24. g3 later followed by Rd6 threatening two pawns is best.

WMHalsdorf · 2016-03-03, 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

Your line has some notation errors. Let me restate what I think your intent is:
24. Rb1 Nc4
25. Rbd1 Rxf5
26. Rxf5 Ne3
27. Rdf1.
Assuming this is your intent, after 27...Nxf5 28. Rxf5 I agree that the resulting position is very tough to defend. This is not good.

Thanks for the correction.

Quote:

Below are some lines that I came up with for 24. Rb1:
24. Rb1 Nc4
25. Rb4 Re8! threatening mate
26. h3 h5
27. a4 Re2
...bad bad 24. Rb1 followed by 25. Rb4 does not work.

We need to drive away the g4 rook to prevent the potential mate threat resulting from Re8 (to keep our 1st-rank rook free to move) and so that we can free up our d5 rook. We could try:

24. Rb1 Nc4
25. g3 Re4
26. Rd7 Rd2

The problem with this line is that we have effectively forced black to place his knight on the better square at Nc4 by playing 24. Rb1. By doing so he protects his b6 pawn and keeps us from playing the very strong Rd6.

24. Rb1 creates more complications than are necessary for us. I think that 24. g3 later followed by Rd6 threatening two pawns is best.

It appears we both have the same view of this position.

Brian-E · 2016-03-04, 00:35

Till's 24.Rb1 was a good suggestion and showed some subtleties which I had not noticed. But I after reading the analysis of Gary and WMH I still agree that 24.g3 is our best chance.

LaurV · 2016-03-04, 05:03

Somehow 24.g3 does not fit with why we moved the horse to f5. I agree that g3 is a good move, but (see my post at the end of the "move 23" thread) I thought that blocking g7 is done exactly to have the mate threat, so to indirectly link his h8 rook to the 8th line. This way he can't take our pawn in a2 and we free our rook in a1. So, we can move the rook to b1.

24 Rb1 Nc4
25 Rb4 - he can't take the pawn, due to the mate threat
26 h3 h5
27 a4 Re2
28 Rd4 (forcing the exchange, horses are gone) Rxf5
29 Rbxc4(!) Rff2
30 g4

I don't see anything so "bad bad". We will play down a pawn, but his pawns are ugly arranged, this is still a very drawish position.
[edit: if Rg2+ Kf1, he can't beat g4 due to two checks in a row, we take both his rooks]

Also, we may play 24. Rf1, forcing an exchange (this needs more analysis).

I will look deeper into these 3 moves during the weekend.

gd_barnes · 2016-03-04, 05:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurV

Somehow 24.g3 does not fit with why we moved the horse to f5. I agree that g3 is a good move, but (see my post at the end of the "move 23" thread) I thought that blocking g7 is done exactly to have the mate threat, so to indirectly link his h8 rook to the 8th line. This way he can't take our pawn in a2 and we free our rook in a1. So, we can move the rook to b1.

24 Rb1 Nc4
25 Rb4 - he can't take the pawn, due to the mate threat
26 h3 h5
27 a4 Re2
28 Rd4 (forcing the exchange, horses are gone) Rxf5
29 Rbxc4(!) Rff2
30 g4

I don't see anything so "bad bad". We will play down a pawn, but his pawns are ugly arranged, this is still a very drawish position.
[edit: if Rg2+ Kf1, he can't beat g4 due to two checks in a row, we take both his rooks]

Also, we may play 24. Rf1, forcing an exchange (this needs more analysis).

I will look deeper into these 3 moves during the weekend.

Why is 24. g3 inconsistent with our 23. Nf5 move?

I still think the above line is "bad bad". The exchange is not forced on the 28th move. Better for black's move 28 is:

28. Rd4 Rff2!

This looks very scary. We do not want to allow black to double his rooks on our 2nd rank.

Also, black has many choices for his move 27. Besides Re2, he could play Re1+, Ree4, Re5, or Re6, all of which are reasonable. I don't think we want to try to analyze all the myriads of possibilities for all of these lines. 24. g3 keeps it simple.

I'll do a deeper analysis of 24. g3 in the next post as well as an analysis of 24. Rf1 in the next post. I think I came up with an interesting line for 24. g3 that had not previously been brought up.

gd_barnes · 2016-03-04, 07:53

Let's take a deeper look at 24. g3. To be completely thorough, black has 4 reasonable responses to the move: 24...Rfa4, Rc4, Re4, & Rf3. Let's briefly look at 3 of the moves and then delve deeply into why I believe that 24...Rc4 is black's best response and how I think it 24. g3 will be our easiest draw.

24...Rfa4
This accomplishes little because black cannot take on a2 because he would drop his rook because he cannot recapture our rook with his a8 rook due to mate. So it is just a waste of move.

24...Re4
25. Rd7
Now we are threatening both 26. Rxb7 and Nh6+, the latter of which allows up to pick off the f7 pawn. 26. Rf1 is even a good potential threat. If we're able to pick off both the f6 and f7 pawns, perpetual check is a likely possibility. Even without the Rf1 threat, we will be even on material and potentially temporarily up a pawn with a good position. I doubt that SF tries this.

24...Rf3 (the 2nd most interesting response)
25. Nd4 Re3
26. Rf1 (any reasonable; note that Rxa2 is not possible as it leads to a mating attack.)
27. Rd7 (any reasonable)
28. Rxf6
Here we are even on material, have a better pawn structure, and will have the world coming down on the f-file and eventually the 7th rank.

So...likely the best response:
24...Rc4

This is where I have a new idea that could give us a quick draw if SF thinks that he has to worsen his position enough to avoid the draw. I had previously suggested 25. Rd7. I believe it was WMHalsdorf who suggested the improvement 25. Rd6. I'd like to offer up something completely different that could lead to a quick draw:

24. g3 Rc4
25. Nh6+!

Let's look at the possible responses:
25...Kh8 (likely the worst response)
26. Rd7 Rxc2
27. Rxf7 Nc4
28. Rxf6
Even on material and a great position for us here.

25...Kf8
26. Rd7 Kg7
27. Nf5+! Kg6
(We are going for the perpetual check or to worsen black's position instead of immediately trying to gain material.)
28. Nh4+ Kg7 (28...Kg5, Kh5 or Kh6 all lose significant material)
29. Nf5+ Kf8? (black is better to allow the perpetual check with Kg6)
30. Rb1! Na4
(not 30...Rb4? and we win the knight by driving away the rook with 31. c3 Rb5 Nd6)
31. Rbd1 Rc8 or Re4
32. Rxb7
This is a tremendous position for us. We could play for a win. Black would have been better to take the perpetual check at move 29, which I'm sure SF would do.

I think we can rule out those two responses, which leaves us with:

25...Kg7
26. Nf5+ Kf8*
(We have effectively taken 2 moves to bring about the same position with black's king on f8 instead of g8.)
27. Rd7 Rxc2
(I feel like 27. Rd6 gives black too much counterplay after 27...b5.)
28. Nh6 Kg7**
29. Nf5+! Kg6
(Temporarily down 2 pawns but consistent to the end! If Kf8 or Kg8, we just repeat ourselves with Nh6 aiming for 3-time repetition.)
30. Nh4+ Kg7
(Any other move by black loses material with 31. Rxf7 and eventually Rf1 as we threaten multiple pawns, perpetual check, or 3-time repetition.)
31. Nf5+
(With perpetual check or 3-time repetition in a few moves.)

*Another possibility for black's move 26:
26...Kh8
27. Rd7 Rxc2
28. Rxf7 Nc4
29. Rxb7 Nd2 threatening Nf3+ and preventing Rf1
30. Nh4
Black can choose to swap off his b6 pawn for our b2 pawn but besides that no progress can be made.

**Another possibility for black's move 28:
28...Ke8
29. Rxf7 Nd3
30. Rxh7 Raxa2
31. Rxa2 Rxa2
32. Rxb7
Dead drawn here.

I think this exhausts the reasonable responses to 24. g3. I see no recourse for black avoiding a fairly quick draw now unless he wishes to lose. :-)

Can anyone see a way in which SF avoids a sure draw after 24. g3 Rc4 25. Nh6+ ?

Edit: I said I would post an analysis of 24. Rf1. Here it is:
24. Rf1 Rxf1
25. Kxf1 Nc4
I can see no line that is very good for us here. 24. Rf1 gives black a tempo, which allows Nc4 quickly protecting his b6 pawn and preventing our strong Rd6.

axn · 2016-03-04, 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

Can anyone see a way in which SF avoids a sure draw after 24. g3 Rc4 25. Nh6+ ?

How will the game go after 25... Kg7 26. Nf5+ Kg6, king moving up the board?

gd_barnes · 2016-03-04, 09:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by axn

How will the game go after 25... Kg7 26. Nf5+ Kg6, king moving up the board?

He can't move up the board any further. This effectively becomes a transposition of two of the above lines.
27. Nh4+ Kg7
28. Nf5+

If black plays 28...Kg6 we just repeat ourselves with 29. Nh4+.
If black plays 28...Kg8 we just repeat ourselves with 29. Nh6+.
If black plays 28. Kf8 or Kh8, see the lines in the above posting starting from our move 27.

Edit: Another possibility that is better for us:
27. Nh4+ Kh6
28. Rf1!
I don't think SF plays this.

LaurV · 2016-03-04, 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

Let's take...<snip>

Very impressive! But let me get home tonight to be able to understand all that. For so much effort, I am tempted to vote with g3, without anymore wasting time. It looks like you really did your homework. Maybe my understanding of the reason why we moved Nf5 was not totally right. Anyhow, at a fast view, 24..Rfa4 doesn't look useless to me, after Rd7 R4a5 we lose the mate threat and he still can take that pawn (but he loses from the back of b column, too). This is just first sight, maybe I am wrong, I will have to look deeper into your post over the weekend.

edit: technically, g3 or Rb1, it is still a draw. My (subjective) problem with g3 is that is lets our king open, in case a stronger black threat in the future. So, from "strategic" point of view, it would be better to move h3, than g3. But moving h3 now it is a waste of a move. Or maybe not a waste, but it has no sente either.

axn · 2016-03-04, 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

He can't move up the board any further. This effectively becomes a transposition of two of the above lines.
27. Nh4+ Kg7
28. Nf5+

Actually I was thinking something like 27. Nh4+ Kh6 (sticking to 6th rank) 28. Nf5+ Kg5 (infiltrating 5th), etc...
But after the discovered check 29. Ne3+ (or Nd6+), we'll win the exchange, so that is a no-go.

EDIT:- What about the rook sac, 27. Nh4+ Rxh4 28. gxh4? Our king's pawn cover is blown. Any dangers there? (We can avoid this line with 27. Ne7+)

2016-03-04, 05:03	#16
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41·251 Posts	Somehow 24.g3 does not fit with why we moved the horse to f5. I agree that g3 is a good move, but (see my post at the end of the "move 23" thread) I thought that blocking g7 is done exactly to have the mate threat, so to indirectly link his h8 rook to the 8th line. This way he can't take our pawn in a2 and we free our rook in a1. So, we can move the rook to b1. 24 Rb1 Nc4 25 Rb4 - he can't take the pawn, due to the mate threat 26 h3 h5 27 a4 Re2 28 Rd4 (forcing the exchange, horses are gone) Rxf5 29 Rbxc4(!) Rff2 30 g4 I don't see anything so "bad bad". We will play down a pawn, but his pawns are ugly arranged, this is still a very drawish position. [edit: if Rg2+ Kf1, he can't beat g4 due to two checks in a row, we take both his rooks] Also, we may play 24. Rf1, forcing an exchange (this needs more analysis). I will look deeper into these 3 moves during the weekend. Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2016-03-04 at 05:12

2016-03-04, 07:53	#18
gd_barnes "Gary" May 2007 Overland Park, KS 5×2,459 Posts	Let's take a deeper look at 24. g3. To be completely thorough, black has 4 reasonable responses to the move: 24...Rfa4, Rc4, Re4, & Rf3. Let's briefly look at 3 of the moves and then delve deeply into why I believe that 24...Rc4 is black's best response and how I think it 24. g3 will be our easiest draw. 24...Rfa4 This accomplishes little because black cannot take on a2 because he would drop his rook because he cannot recapture our rook with his a8 rook due to mate. So it is just a waste of move. 24...Re4 25. Rd7 Now we are threatening both 26. Rxb7 and Nh6+, the latter of which allows up to pick off the f7 pawn. 26. Rf1 is even a good potential threat. If we're able to pick off both the f6 and f7 pawns, perpetual check is a likely possibility. Even without the Rf1 threat, we will be even on material and potentially temporarily up a pawn with a good position. I doubt that SF tries this. 24...Rf3 (the 2nd most interesting response) 25. Nd4 Re3 26. Rf1 (any reasonable; note that Rxa2 is not possible as it leads to a mating attack.) 27. Rd7 (any reasonable) 28. Rxf6 Here we are even on material, have a better pawn structure, and will have the world coming down on the f-file and eventually the 7th rank. So...likely the best response: 24...Rc4 This is where I have a new idea that could give us a quick draw if SF thinks that he has to worsen his position enough to avoid the draw. I had previously suggested 25. Rd7. I believe it was WMHalsdorf who suggested the improvement 25. Rd6. I'd like to offer up something completely different that could lead to a quick draw: 24. g3 Rc4 25. Nh6+! Let's look at the possible responses: 25...Kh8 (likely the worst response) 26. Rd7 Rxc2 27. Rxf7 Nc4 28. Rxf6 Even on material and a great position for us here. 25...Kf8 26. Rd7 Kg7 27. Nf5+! Kg6 (We are going for the perpetual check or to worsen black's position instead of immediately trying to gain material.) 28. Nh4+ Kg7 (28...Kg5, Kh5 or Kh6 all lose significant material) 29. Nf5+ Kf8? (black is better to allow the perpetual check with Kg6) 30. Rb1! Na4 (not 30...Rb4? and we win the knight by driving away the rook with 31. c3 Rb5 Nd6) 31. Rbd1 Rc8 or Re4 32. Rxb7 This is a tremendous position for us. We could play for a win. Black would have been better to take the perpetual check at move 29, which I'm sure SF would do. I think we can rule out those two responses, which leaves us with: 25...Kg7 26. Nf5+ Kf8* (We have effectively taken 2 moves to bring about the same position with black's king on f8 instead of g8.) 27. Rd7 Rxc2 (I feel like 27. Rd6 gives black too much counterplay after 27...b5.) 28. Nh6 Kg7** 29. Nf5+! Kg6 (Temporarily down 2 pawns but consistent to the end! If Kf8 or Kg8, we just repeat ourselves with Nh6 aiming for 3-time repetition.) 30. Nh4+ Kg7 (Any other move by black loses material with 31. Rxf7 and eventually Rf1 as we threaten multiple pawns, perpetual check, or 3-time repetition.) 31. Nf5+ (With perpetual check or 3-time repetition in a few moves.) Another possibility for black's move 26: 26...Kh8 27. Rd7 Rxc2 28. Rxf7 Nc4 29. Rxb7 Nd2 threatening Nf3+ and preventing Rf1 30. Nh4 Black can choose to swap off his b6 pawn for our b2 pawn but besides that no progress can be made. Another possibility for black's move 28: 28...Ke8 29. Rxf7 Nd3 30. Rxh7 Raxa2 31. Rxa2 Rxa2 32. Rxb7 Dead drawn here. I think this exhausts the reasonable responses to 24. g3. I see no recourse for black avoiding a fairly quick draw now unless he wishes to lose. :-) Can anyone see a way in which SF avoids a sure draw after 24. g3 Rc4 25. Nh6+ ? Edit: I said I would post an analysis of 24. Rf1. Here it is: 24. Rf1 Rxf1 25. Kxf1 Nc4 I can see no line that is very good for us here. 24. Rf1 gives black a tempo, which allows Nc4 quickly protecting his b6 pawn and preventing our strong Rd6. Last fiddled with by gd_barnes on 2016-03-04 at 08:50 Reason: edit*

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2016-03-04, 00:35	#15
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	Till's 24.Rb1 was a good suggestion and showed some subtleties which I had not noticed. But I after reading the analysis of Gary and WMH I still agree that 24.g3 is our best chance.