Move 21 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish

Nd4.
How comfortable is anyone with this game becoming a draw?

[WMHalsdorf]

Originally Posted by jwaltos

Nd4.
How comfortable is anyone with this game becoming a draw?

If we make no mistakes then a draw is possible.

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

If we make no mistakes then a draw is possible.

depending on the path ( though we've basically chosen that now) with a potential for computer play to mess up I've already shown lines that could of gone to a win but that's irrelevant as computers won't mess up.

[WMHalsdorf]

Originally Posted by science_man_88

depending on the path ( though we've basically chosen that now) with a potential for computer play to mess up I've already shown lines that could of gone to a win but that's irrelevant as computers won't mess up.

In tactical positions the computer will find the correct path but in positional oositions there is a slim chance that the computer will miss the correct path do to alpha-beta pruning.

[richs]

I agree with 21. Nd4 as analyzed and discussed in the last two move threads.

[LaurV]

21. Nd4, followed by 21..Re4, 22. b3(!), as discussed in the last threads.

If we can keep our pawns connected there, we may even win on the final stage of the game. That is very "strategical", and it can fructify even after 30 or 40 moves, where I am sure even SF can not reach with the analysis. But as it seems, he may move Ne3, then later do Rxd4 and Nxc2, forking our rooks, with this we only get to two pawns, one marginal, with one rook against one rook, and no horses. We can not avoid that (remember, it was my version of the game long time ago).

With that, we have a draw.

Now, the question is only if we can do something better than 22.b3, there seems to be many other possibilities, but none of them saving all three pawns we have. We lose at least a pawn from the 3, plus eventually f4, which means draw. The f4 is not important right now, and it already have done his job. But a2-b2-c2 pawns are very important. They can win the game (maybe...) if we find a way to save them now.

[gd_barnes]

Originally Posted by LaurV

21. Nd4, followed by 21..Re4, 22. b3(!), as discussed in the last threads.

If we can keep our pawns connected there, we may even win on the final stage of the game. That is very "strategical", and it can fructify even after 30 or 40 moves, where I am sure even SF can not reach with the analysis. But as it seems, he may move Ne3, then later do Rxd4 and Nxc2, forking our rooks, with this we only get to two pawns, one marginal, with one rook against one rook, and no horses. We can not avoid that (remember, it was my version of the game long time ago).

With that, we have a draw.

Now, the question is only if we can do something better than 22.b3, there seems to be many other possibilities, but none of them saving all three pawns we have. We lose at least a pawn from the 3, plus eventually f4, which means draw. The f4 is not important right now, and it already have done his job. But a2-b2-c2 pawns are very important. They can win the game (maybe...) if we find a way to save them now.

We cannot hold the pawns very long. Against 22. b3, I think that SF would definitely play 22...Ne3, which leads to some very tactical positions. I feel like 21. Nd4 Re4 22. Nf5 looks better for us. It lets SF temporarily gain a pawn but our knight is in excellent position to allow us to relatively easily force a draw. See my analysis at the beginning of this post:
http://mersenneforum.org/showpost.ph...8&postcount=14...
especially the paragraph right after that initial analysis. We can eventually chase the black king around all day with idle threats on the pawns and 7th rank pretty much forcing the draw.

I'm concerned about the tactical nature of some of the positions that result from 22. b3. It will depend on how SF analyzes the positions. To clarify what I think you are implying, I think here is what we are probably looking at in your line:
21. Nd4 Re4
22. b3 Ne3
23. Rd3 Rxd4 (a)
24. Rxd4 Nxc2
25. Rad1 Nxd4
26. Rxd4 Rxa2
27. Rxd5
We are a pawn down but the position looks dead drawn. We should be good here but there's another line for SF that concerns me more...

-or-
(a)
23. ...Rxf4
24. Re1 Nf5 (b)
25. Ne2

-or-
(b)
24....Ng4
25. a4
Both of these lines look decent for us but...they both are very tactical positions. Even though I feel we are better we're going to have to pull some good moves out of our hat. I feel like 21. Nd4 Re4 22. Nf5 would be much less risky. We could almost force a draw with several pieces left on the board and not have to worry about tactics too much in the late middle game.

Note that in virtually all lines, SF gains a pawn so I don't feel like we're losing anything by more quickly sacking the b pawn for a quicker "drawing attack". :-)

Anyway, I'm posting this line now because I will be out of town for 2 weeks starting later today. I will be online sporadically while pushing a few pieces around in my hotel room. There's likely to be some interesting debate about our next move.