Move 21 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish

[MooMoo2]

The poll for move 20 just closed, and the most popular move was f4. Stockfish responded with 20...Re2, and the FEN is:
r5k1/1p3p1p/1p3p2/3p4/2n2P2/1N6/PPP1r1PP/R2R2K1 w - - 1 21

Game so far: 1.e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. exd5 exd5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. Bxd7+ Nbxd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 O-O 12. Nf5 Re8 13. Nxe7+ Rxe7 14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 Nc4 16. Bxf6 gxf6 17. Qd4 Qb6 18. Qxb6 axb6 19. Rfd1 Re5 20. f4 Re2

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by MooMoo2

The poll for move 20 just closed, and the most popular move was f4. Stockfish responded with 20...Re2, and the FEN is:
r5k1/1p3p1p/1p3p2/3p4/2n2P2/1N6/PPP1r1PP/R2R2K1 w - - 1 21

Game so far: 1.e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. exd5 exd5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. Bxd7+ Nbxd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 O-O 12. Nf5 Re8 13. Nxe7+ Rxe7 14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 Nc4 16. Bxf6 gxf6 17. Qd4 Qb6 18. Qxb6 axb6 19. Rfd1 Re5 20. f4 Re2

I believe the lines people have given agreed with Nd4

[WMHalsdorf]

Originally Posted by science_man_88

I believe the lines people have given agreed with Nd4

Correct.

[Brian-E]

Yes, I see no reasonable alternative to 21.Nd4. It looks adequate and forced anyway.

If 21.Rxd5 Ne3 22.Rd7 Rxg2+ 23.Kh1 Rxc2 24.Rxb7 Rxb2 25.Rxb6 Raxa2 Black mates us.

[gd_barnes]

Nd4. All according to the plan discussed in moves 19 and 20.

[gd_barnes]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Yes, I see no reasonable alternative to 21.Nd4. It looks adequate and forced anyway.

If 21.Rxd5 Ne3 22.Rd7 Rxg2+ 23.Kh1 Rxc2 24.Rxb7 Rxb2 25.Rxb6 Raxa2 Black mates us.

22. Rd7? would be a serious blunder by us allowing such an overwhelming attack. I think we would have to force the rook swap with 22. Rd2. But I believe there are other lines that would make 21. Rxd5 not so good also. 21. Nd4 definitely looks best.

[davar55]

Must avoid an overwhelming attack...

[Brian-E]

Yes, see that line as illustrative of Black's possibilities if we allow too much leeway in general, not the natural consequence of 21.Rxd5.

After 21.Rxd5, either 21...Rxc2 or 21...Rae8 are likely better would put us in trouble with threats to invade with both rooks or eat most of our pawns.

Flushing the rook off the rank immediately with 21.Nd4 is therefore the only sensible move.

[WMHalsdorf]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Yes, see that line as illustrative of Black's possibilities if we allow too much leeway in general, not the natural consequence of 21.Rxd5.

After 21.Rxd5, either 21...Rxc2 or 21...Rae8 are likely better would put us in trouble with threats to invade with both rooks or eat most of our pawns.

Flushing the rook off the rank immediately with 21.Nd4 is therefore the only sensible move.

21. Rxc2 Rxc2 22. Rc1 Rxc1 23. Nxc1 Nxb2 24. Rb5 Na4 not an easy draw.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

21. Rxc2 Rxc2 22. Rc1 Rxc1 23. Nxc1 Nxb2 24. Rb5 Na4 not an easy draw.

Actually that line (starting with 21.Rxd5) does look quite drawish to me, but 22...Rxg2+ 23.Kxg2 Ne3+ 24.Kf3 Nxd5 25.Rd1 Nb4 26.a3 Nc6 27.Rd7 Rd8 forcing 28.Rxd8+ Nxd8 and a pure knight ending might well be losing for us.
21...Rae8 might be stronger still, as well.

I guess we're both playing devil's advocate anyway, because neither of us has expressed a preference for 21.Rxd5.

[WMHalsdorf]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Actually that line (starting with 21.Rxd5) does look quite drawish to me, but 22...Rxg2+ 23.Kxg2 Ne3+ 24.Kf3 Nxd5 25.Rd1 Nb4 26.a3 Nc6 27.Rd7 Rd8 forcing 28.Rxd8+ Nxd8 and a pure knight ending might well be losing for us.
21...Rae8 might be stronger still, as well.

I guess we're both playing devil's advocate anyway, because neither of us has expressed a preference for 21.Rxd5.

Just driving home the point that it's not that good of a move. A better response to 26.a3 would be Ra4