Move 20 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish

[MooMoo2]

The poll for move 19 just closed, and the most popular move was Rfd1. Stockfish responded with 19...Re5, and the FEN is:
r5k1/1p3p1p/1p3p2/3pr3/2n5/1N3P2/PPP3PP/R2R2K1 w - - 2 20

Game so far: 1.e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. exd5 exd5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. Bxd7+ Nbxd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 O-O 12. Nf5 Re8 13. Nxe7+ Rxe7 14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 Nc4 16. Bxf6 gxf6 17. Qd4 Qb6 18. Qxb6 axb6 19. Rfd1 Re5

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by MooMoo2

The poll for move 19 just closed, and the most popular move was Rfd1. Stockfish responded with 19...Re5, and the FEN is:
r5k1/1p3p1p/1p3p2/3pr3/2n5/1N3P2/PPP3PP/R2R2K1 w - - 2 20

Game so far: 1.e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. exd5 exd5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. Bxd7+ Nbxd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 O-O 12. Nf5 Re8 13. Nxe7+ Rxe7 14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 Nc4 16. Bxf6 gxf6 17. Qd4 Qb6 18. Qxb6 axb6 19. Rfd1 Re5

for a computer with a crappy looking position it's doing better than we are in terms of number of possible moves we have 21 to choose from and stockfish has 27 if I count correctly. I don't think the f pawn attacking the rook is smart so that's off my list at the moment.

[WMHalsdorf]

Originally Posted by science_man_88

for a computer with a crappy looking position it's doing better than we are in terms of number of possible moves we have 21 to choose from and stockfish has 27 if I count correctly. I don't think the f pawn attacking the rook is smart so that's off my list at the moment.

As to the first point mobility is part of the scoring function.

As to the second point I would play f4, so what do think what SF would do?

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

As to the first point mobility is part of the scoring function.

As to the second point I would play f4, so what do think what SF would do?

well after that move if the computer cares about keeping the rook it will be limited to Re4,Re3 ,Re2, Rf5, Rh5 or retreat of which Re2 has already been noted as the most compromising to us potentially ( though now I see that Kf1 defends it.) with two rooks on the board I could see potential to force our king to d3 if we mishandle an attack. On the black attack that's the best idea I see right now a knight move may also lead to a few things. after the capture ( assuming that's what we go for, though we'd free up black's pawn structure if they accept the capture as well). still a lot of options to think about though. edit: I also see that black may have to switch files in which case only two rook moves deal with the attack and keep the center pawn from potentially falling.

[WMHalsdorf]

[Result "*"]

For 20. f4 Re2
A possible line
21. Nd4 Re4 22. Nf5 Nxb2 23. Rxd5 Rxf4 24. g3 Rf3 25. Nd4 Re3 26. Rd7 Re4
27. Nf5 Nc4 *

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

[Result "*"]

For 20. f4 Re2
A possible line
21. Nd4 Re4 22. Nf5 Nxb2 23. Rxd5 Rxf4 24. g3 Rf3 25. Nd4 Re3 26. Rd7 Re4
27. Nf5 Nc4 *

okay I get it my brain sucks is the point right ?

[WMHalsdorf]

Originally Posted by science_man_88

okay I get it my brain sucks is the point right ?

Download ChessPad you can play out various lines and it will record the moves so you can play them back.

[gd_barnes]

20. f4 is an easy choice here. The analysis shown by WMHalsdorf here is very similar to the analysis that I showed on move 19. It is the same through white's move 24.

The number of legal moves in any given position rarely means much in the mid-game. Frequently grandmasters will play moves that give their opponents more choice, which gives the opponent a greater chance of blundering. A forced line with fewer possibilities is much easier to play. That's why I was a big advocate of us swapping off queens against a strong piece of software. These queenless positions are easier for us to play.

Here we want to activate both our rook and later our knight with tempo into the center. By playing 20. f4 potentially forcing the black rook to e2, we accomplish just that. This ultimately gives us attacks on both wings meaning a much greater chance of draw.

I too use ChessPad when I am in town, which is barely over half of the time. Unfortunately I only have limited online access when I'm out of town so end up bringing a chess set. I can promise that pushing the pieces around on a screen and being able to reverse back several moves or to the original position is far easier than doing so on a physical chess set.

[Brian-E]

I too think 20.f4 is obvious and correct. The move 19...Re5, although expected by many here, actually surprised me because of this natural reply.

I find it difficult to believe that a program like Stockfish, which is far stronger than any human alive, could have played into what is looking like a weak position for Black. I'm still waiting to see what we've all missed.

d1 to e1.
The Knight maintains the attack. Then develop a stronger attack or advance the pawn that is under threat. Blacks responses are expected to be defensive unless I have missed something.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by jwaltos

d1 to e1.
The Knight maintains the attack. Then develop a stronger attack or advance the pawn that is under threat. Blacks responses are expected to be defensive unless I have missed something.

20.Re1 may not be bad, but it is inconsistent with our previous move which was an attack on the black d pawn and therefore looks to me like a loss of time.