Move 19b discussion: Everyone vs Stockfish - Page 2

gd_barnes · 2016-01-30, 08:03

Definitely c3 here.

The possible responses almost seem too numerous to analyze. I feel like Qf5 eventually threatening Qc2 and immediately preventing Rf2 is better then Qe5 but there are many other possibilities also.

MooMoo2 · 2016-07-17, 21:17

Time to restart this game

I'm planning on opening the poll in about 4-5 days. After that, it'll be 3 days discussion, 3 days voting, like before.

The Carnivore · 2016-07-18, 19:54

Is there a remote possibility that this game can transpose into the previous game? If we were to play 19. Rba1 and Stockfish were to respond with 19. ...Qb6, we could take the queen with 20. Qxb6 and end up in the same position as the previous game. It wouldn't be a fun game, but it's interesting to consider.

WMHalsdorf · 2016-07-18, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Carnivore

Is there a remote possibility that this game can transpose into the previous game? If we were to play 19. Rba1 and Stockfish were to respond with 19. ...Qb6, we could take the queen with 20. Qxb6 and end up in the same position as the previous game. It wouldn't be a fun game, but it's interesting to consider.

No chance with that move now.

richs · 2016-07-19, 02:25

I have reviewed my posts on this line from last January (time flies!) and still advocate c3.

WMHalsdorf · 2016-07-19, 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by richs

I have reviewed my posts on this line from last January (time flies!) and still advocate c3.

Since the move I was considering would most likly transpose into the previous game I'll go with c3 also.

gd_barnes · 2016-07-20, 06:39

I did a bunch of analysis on this after we finished our previous game. I would like to propose a move that I had previously dismissed that others can take their time and analyze:

19. Rfe1

Since the game won't start again for several days, I won't post any lines now but will later. I would be curious to see the lines that others come up with.

This gives us fairly easy drawing chances in a manner that sacking the pawn did in the last game. It does so because the complexity of the position drops dramatically. We give up our two rooks for a queen (equivalent of a one pawn loss) but have excellent compensation with our queen attacking in the middle. In many variations we pick up a pawn (making it even on material) and/or are able to threaten many perpetual checks and/or chasing the black king around.

Against such a powerful tactical opponent, I'm no longer fond of the complexity of the position that results from a move such as 19. c3 that does not swap off material.

I'll be on a business trip starting around the 25th for about 10 days and so may have only limited time to analyze the game in there.

gd_barnes · 2016-07-23, 19:05

I guess I should have posted some lines for 19. Rfe1 sooner. If people can hold off on voting, I think you'll find that it is a much easier draw than 19. c3. I'll post them within 3 hours.

gd_barnes · 2016-07-23, 21:16

Lines for 19. Rfe1 that I think play themselves more easily than lines for 19. c3:

19. Rfe1 Qxe1+
20. Rxe1 Rxe1+
21. Kf2 Rae8 (A)
22. Qxf6* R1e2+
23. Kg1 R2e6 [ Likely the best try; see (C) ]
24. Qg5+ Rg6
25. Qf4 (D)
We are now even on material and despite appearances, this position looks good for us. We have several threats and black must play very carefully:
(1) Black attempts a futile attack on our second rank:
25...Re2
26. g4
We are now threatening both Nd4 & Qb8+ and black material will fall so black must play is rook right back with 26...Re8. At this point, black has effectively lost a tempo so we can build up an attack starting with 27. Nd4.

(2) Black attempts to gain back material:
25...Nxb2
Black's knight is now out of position, which helps us.
26. Nc5 Nc4
27. Nd7
and we gain the pawn back in a few moves with an excellent central position.

(3) Black attempts to strongly post the knight:
25...Ne3
26. g3 Nxc2
27. Nc5
Where does black go from here? We are threatening Nd7 and Qd2. He is in a tough place.

The point is that our threats of Nc5 and Nd4, which ultimately threaten to invade black's position strongly outweigh black's one-move threats. Also he has tremendous difficulty protecting his a, b, and d pawns.

*Not taking the pawn leads to a tough tactical position for us, i.e.:
22. Qg4+ (B) Kf8
23. Nd4 (Threatening Nf5 and mate following move.) but...
23...Rf1+! (We can't take the rook due to the knight fork.)
24. Kg3 Ne3
25. Qh4
This is likely an even position but it is tactically difficult and not one that we probably want to play.

(A) Attempting to protect the pawns with 21...Re5 is futile. 22. Nc5! threating Nd3 followed by Nf4 with an excellent attack in the middle and on the king side. We eventually win the pawn back anyway and have multiple threats on other pawns and/or to force perpetual check.

(B) Of course not:
22. Qxd5 R1e2+
23. Kg3 Ne3
and we are in serious trouble.

(C) Likely not:
23...Rxc2
24. Qg5+ Kf8
25. Qh6+ Ke7
26. Qg5+
Now...since black cannot play 26...Kd7 27. Qf5+!, he has only two ways to avoid perpetual check without losing substantial material:
(1)
26...f6
27. Qg7+ Kd6 or Kd8
28. Qxf6+
and black is clearly losing.
(2)
26...Kd6
27. Qf6+ Re6
28. Qd8+
and we can chase black's king around all day. So...we can say that 23...Rxc2 would lead to an easy draw by perpetual check.

(D) not:
25. Qxd5 Re1+
26. Kf2 Rf1+!
27. Kxf1 Ne3+
and it's lights out for us.

Final thoughts:
1. Black has very open lines to his king which are difficult to defend without his queen.
2. Black has a terrible pawn structure.
3. Swapping off material against a strong tactician is good.

Therefore I think that opening things up to where we have multiple lines of attack with our queen is the way to go.

LaurV · 2016-07-25, 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

19.Qf2 appears to be a draw because SF best move appears to be Qb6

Only if we move back Qd4. But now our pawn in b2 is defended, and we should be stupid to do so, we exchange the queens and (as opposite to the former game where we would lose a move to defend the pawn) after axb6, a3, we are very good there. (edit: what I said during the former game, if we can hold those those pawns together, we don't play for draw anymore, we play for win!)

I think this (19 Qf2) is by far the best move.

gd_barnes · 2016-07-25, 17:52

I think that 19. c3 or Qf2 are both good moves for us. I'm still advocating for 19. Rfe1 because it much more quickly simplifies the position.

2016-07-20, 06:39	#18
gd_barnes "Gary" May 2007 Overland Park, KS 30007₈ Posts	I did a bunch of analysis on this after we finished our previous game. I would like to propose a move that I had previously dismissed that others can take their time and analyze: 19. Rfe1 Since the game won't start again for several days, I won't post any lines now but will later. I would be curious to see the lines that others come up with. This gives us fairly easy drawing chances in a manner that sacking the pawn did in the last game. It does so because the complexity of the position drops dramatically. We give up our two rooks for a queen (equivalent of a one pawn loss) but have excellent compensation with our queen attacking in the middle. In many variations we pick up a pawn (making it even on material) and/or are able to threaten many perpetual checks and/or chasing the black king around. Against such a powerful tactical opponent, I'm no longer fond of the complexity of the position that results from a move such as 19. c3 that does not swap off material. I'll be on a business trip starting around the 25th for about 10 days and so may have only limited time to analyze the game in there. Last fiddled with by gd_barnes on 2016-07-20 at 06:43

2016-07-23, 19:05	#19
gd_barnes "Gary" May 2007 Overland Park, KS 5·2,459 Posts	I guess I should have posted some lines for 19. Rfe1 sooner. If people can hold off on voting, I think you'll find that it is a much easier draw than 19. c3. I'll post them within 3 hours. Last fiddled with by gd_barnes on 2016-07-23 at 19:05

2016-07-23, 21:16	#20
gd_barnes "Gary" May 2007 Overland Park, KS 5·2,459 Posts	Lines for 19. Rfe1 that I think play themselves more easily than lines for 19. c3: 19. Rfe1 Qxe1+ 20. Rxe1 Rxe1+ 21. Kf2 Rae8 (A) 22. Qxf6* R1e2+ 23. Kg1 R2e6 [ Likely the best try; see (C) ] 24. Qg5+ Rg6 25. Qf4 (D) We are now even on material and despite appearances, this position looks good for us. We have several threats and black must play very carefully: (1) Black attempts a futile attack on our second rank: 25...Re2 26. g4 We are now threatening both Nd4 & Qb8+ and black material will fall so black must play is rook right back with 26...Re8. At this point, black has effectively lost a tempo so we can build up an attack starting with 27. Nd4. (2) Black attempts to gain back material: 25...Nxb2 Black's knight is now out of position, which helps us. 26. Nc5 Nc4 27. Nd7 and we gain the pawn back in a few moves with an excellent central position. (3) Black attempts to strongly post the knight: 25...Ne3 26. g3 Nxc2 27. Nc5 Where does black go from here? We are threatening Nd7 and Qd2. He is in a tough place. The point is that our threats of Nc5 and Nd4, which ultimately threaten to invade black's position strongly outweigh black's one-move threats. Also he has tremendous difficulty protecting his a, b, and d pawns. Not taking the pawn leads to a tough tactical position for us, i.e.: 22. Qg4+ (B) Kf8 23. Nd4 (Threatening Nf5 and mate following move.) but... 23...Rf1+! (We can't take the rook due to the knight fork.) 24. Kg3 Ne3 25. Qh4 This is likely an even position but it is tactically difficult and not one that we probably want to play. (A) Attempting to protect the pawns with 21...Re5 is futile. 22. Nc5! threating Nd3 followed by Nf4 with an excellent attack in the middle and on the king side. We eventually win the pawn back anyway and have multiple threats on other pawns and/or to force perpetual check. (B) Of course not: 22. Qxd5 R1e2+ 23. Kg3 Ne3 and we are in serious trouble. (C) Likely not: 23...Rxc2 24. Qg5+ Kf8 25. Qh6+ Ke7 26. Qg5+ Now...since black cannot play 26...Kd7 27. Qf5+!, he has only two ways to avoid perpetual check without losing substantial material: (1) 26...f6 27. Qg7+ Kd6 or Kd8 28. Qxf6+ and black is clearly losing. (2) 26...Kd6 27. Qf6+ Re6 28. Qd8+ and we can chase black's king around all day. So...we can say that 23...Rxc2 would lead to an easy draw by perpetual check. (D) not: 25. Qxd5 Re1+ 26. Kf2 Rf1+! 27. Kxf1 Ne3+ and it's lights out for us. Final thoughts: 1. Black has very open lines to his king which are difficult to defend without his queen. 2. Black has a terrible pawn structure. 3. Swapping off material against a strong tactician is good. Therefore I think that opening things up to where we have multiple lines of attack with our queen is the way to go. Last fiddled with by gd_barnes on 2016-07-23 at 21:29*

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Stockfish-assisted game vs Stockfish, move 8 discussion	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	11	2016-10-21 15:47
Move 33 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	8	2016-04-23 14:07
Move 30 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	2	2016-04-03 19:55
Move 29 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	8	2016-03-29 10:27
Move 5 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	5	2015-11-13 13:39

2016-01-30, 08:03	#12
gd_barnes "Gary" May 2007 Overland Park, KS 5×2,459 Posts	Definitely c3 here. The possible responses almost seem too numerous to analyze. I feel like Qf5 eventually threatening Qc2 and immediately preventing Rf2 is better then Qe5 but there are many other possibilities also.

2016-07-17, 21:17	#13
MooMoo2 "Michael Kwok" Mar 2006 2²×5×59 Posts	Time to restart this game I'm planning on opening the poll in about 4-5 days. After that, it'll be 3 days discussion, 3 days voting, like before.

2016-07-18, 19:54	#14
The Carnivore Jun 2010 100001000₂ Posts	Is there a remote possibility that this game can transpose into the previous game? If we were to play 19. Rba1 and Stockfish were to respond with 19. ...Qb6, we could take the queen with 20. Qxb6 and end up in the same position as the previous game. It wouldn't be a fun game, but it's interesting to consider.

2016-07-19, 02:25	#16
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	I have reviewed my posts on this line from last January (time flies!) and still advocate c3.

2016-07-25, 17:52	#22
gd_barnes "Gary" May 2007 Overland Park, KS 30007₈ Posts	I think that 19. c3 or Qf2 are both good moves for us. I'm still advocating for 19. Rfe1 because it much more quickly simplifies the position.