Move 19a discussion: Everyone vs Stockfish

[MooMoo2]

The poll for move 18 ended in a 4-4 tie, and one of the most popular moves was Qxb6. Stockfish responded with 18...axb6, and the FEN is:
r5k1/1p2rp1p/1p3p2/3p4/2n5/1N3P2/PPP3PP/R4RK1 w - - 0 19

Game so far: 1.e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. exd5 exd5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. Bxd7+ Nbxd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 O-O 12. Nf5 Re8 13. Nxe7+ Rxe7 14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 Nc4 16. Bxf6 gxf6 17. Qd4 Qb6 18. Qxb6 axb6

[gd_barnes]

19. Rfd1 got the most consideration in our previous discussion but I'd like to throw out the completely dead 19. Nd4 that I briefly mentioned at the end of the discussion. Check out these nice drawish lines:

19. Nd4 Nxb2
20. Rfb1 Nc4
21. Rb5 Ra5
22. Rab1 Rxb5
23. Rxb5

-or-
21.....Re5 or Rd7
22. a4

See here for a more complete analysis of different lines for this. (Ignore the 3rd line under heading "a1". It is incorrect.)

How does either side progress in any of these positions? As LaurV said previously about a different line, it looks like we can draw these lines with one hand tied behind our back.

If I've missed something significant above, 19. Rfd1 looks nice and dead too. But I'm thinking that 19. Nd4 draws even more quickly. I do not see a way that SF can effectively decline capturing the b2 pawn.

If SF was a human with similar talent, 17.....Qxb6 would be considered a near blunder. If you know that you are much higher rated than your opponent, you should not offer up a line that is so easily drawn. I had expected 17.....Qd6.

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

19. Rfd1 got the most consideration in our previous discussion but I'd like to throw out the completely dead 19. Nd4 that I briefly mentioned at the end of the discussion. Check out these nice drawish lines:

19. Nd4 Nxb2
20. Rfb1 Nc4
21. Rb5 Ra5
22. Rab1 Rxb5
23. Rxb5

-or-
21.....Re5 or Rd7
22. a4

See here for a more complete analysis of different lines for this. (Ignore the 3rd line under heading "a1". It is incorrect.)

How does either side progress in any of these positions? As LaurV said previously about a different line, it looks like we can draw these lines with one hand tied behind our back.

If I've missed something significant above, 19. Rfd1 looks nice and dead too. But I'm thinking that 19. Nd4 draws even more quickly. I do not see a way that SF can effectively decline capturing the b2 pawn.

If SF was a human with similar talent, 17.....Qxb6 would be considered a near blunder. If you know that you are much higher rated than your opponent, you should not offer up a line that is so easily drawn. I had expected 17.....Qd6.

The one line I looked at "in depth" was using the a pawn if the knight takes it as it progresses and then moves away the opponent rook is potentially toast and then they are in check followed either by them moving the king or blocking and losing another rook.

[gd_barnes]

Originally Posted by science_man_88

The one line I looked at "in depth" was using the a pawn if the knight takes it as it progresses and then moves away the opponent rook is potentially toast and then they are in check followed either by them moving the king or blocking and losing another rook.

I can't understand this. Can you please specify a specific move sequence?

Any others care to weigh in on my Nd4 move?

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

I can't understand this. Can you please specify a specific move sequence?

Any others care to weigh in on my Nd4 move?

sure random

19. a3 Nxa3
20. .... Nc4
21.Rxa8+ Re8
22. Rxe8

[VBCurtis]

Originally Posted by science_man_88

sure random

19. a3 Nxa3
20. .... Nc4
21.Rxa8+ Re8
22. Rxe8

You're not noticing that our b-pawn covers a3, so no minor piece would take it?

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by VBCurtis

You're not noticing that our b-pawn covers a3, so no minor piece would take it?

okay my point was that even if we put off the later moves until later we can end up in a way that could allow us a threat towards the king.

[VBCurtis]

Your point appears to rest upon stockfish blundering, not a likely occurence.
If you're playing me, your reasoning is solid!

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by VBCurtis

Your point appears to rest upon stockfish blundering, not a likely occurence.
If you're playing me, your reasoning is solid!

it technically speaking doesn't even have to be the knight if it could be moved out of the way either by force or otherwise it clears the file and destruction occurs.

[gd_barnes]

Originally Posted by science_man_88

sure random

19. a3 Nxa3
20. .... Nc4
21.Rxa8+ Re8
22. Rxe8

???

This analysis has (at least) four different problems:

First:
19. a3 is too passive. Advancing the a pawn is a move that we should wait on until later.

Second:
19...Nxa3 in response is not reasonable. We would take the knight and black has no compensation, i.e.:

19. a3 Nxa3
20. Rxa3 Rxa3
21. bxa3

We are up a piece for a pawn and will likely win. No reasonable chess program would do 19...Nxa3.

Third:
Better for black is:
19. a3 Nxb2
20. Rfb1 Nc4
21. Nd4

Fourth:
The resulting position from the 3rd variation is an inferior variation for white of my 19. Nd4 move. If we are going to sack the b pawn to get to a drawn end game, we should gain center control and move the knight to force the issue immediately. That is what I am advocating.

[LaurV]

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

19. Rfd1 got the most consideration in our previous discussion but I'd like to throw out the completely dead 19. Nd4 that I briefly mentioned at the end of the discussion. Check out these nice drawish lines:

19. Nd4 Nxb2
20. Rfb1 Nc4
21. Rb5 Ra5
22. Rab1 Rxb5
23. Rxb5

-or-
21.....Re5 or Rd7
22. a4

Yes, this version is also playable toward a draw, black can't win if we play it right. Here I would argue that white is a bit weaker [edit: compared with 19 Rfd1, and not compared with black], because the sparse pawns. On the other version, if we can keep the three pawns connected there, we are much better off.