Move 18 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish - Page 4

gd_barnes · 2016-01-26, 10:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurV

My line still goes like that:

18. Qxb6 axb6
19. Rfd1 Rd7
20. Rd4 (!)

Now, if 20...Nxb2, then

21. Rg4+ Kf8
22. Rh4

And it all depends of how important that pawn in h7 is for SF.

22... Kg8
23. Rg4+ Kf8
24. Rh4

I can hold that about 10-15 moves (no exaggeration! I played it on board!) with interleaved moves (if SF tries to avoid the draw by repetition), unless SF give the pawn or takes the king out, or etc, both the former are in our advantage*, with no queens and his pawns structure.

The 19...Re5 is weaker for black, we develop our king pawns and he needs to move the rook two-three times in a row.

-------
* the only arguable point here is if forcing his king toward the middle of the table is really in our advantage or not. It may be not, because we just play two pieces and do not develop, and he is centralizing the king, which can come very handy for pawns finale.

Very interesting. Here is a variation on that line:

18. Qxb6 axb6
19. Rfd1 Rd7
20. Rd4 Nxb2
21. Rg4+ Kh8
22. Rf4 Rd6
23. Nd4 Nc4

We are down a pawn but black's pieces are tied down to defense of his horrendous pawn structure.

For this reason, I think that 19...Rd7 is not a good move for SF. It's too defensive. I think that the 18. Qxb6 axb6 19 Rfd1 Re5 line that I analyzed deeply and posted before is better for black. SF is up a pawn in that line there but we have excellent potential future attacking chances.

LaurV, can you elaborate more on:
18. Qxb6 axb6
19. Rfd1 Re5

gd_barnes · 2016-01-26, 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

24...Rxd4 looks more promising for black

No. We are in good shape with:

18. Qxb6 axb6
19. Rfd1 Re5
20. f4 Re2
21. Nd4 Re4
22. b3 Ne3
23. Rd3 Rxf4
24. Re1 Rxd4 (?)
25. Rxd4 Nxc2
26. Rg4+ Kf8
27. Re2 Rxa2
28. Ra4 Rb2
29. Rd2

We are up the exchange for 3 pawns but black's pawns will fall like flies in the end game. We have winning chances here.

WMHalsdorf · 2016-01-26, 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

No. We are in good shape with:

18. Qxb6 axb6
19. Rfd1 Re5
20. f4 Re2
21. Nd4 Re4
22. b3 Ne3
23. Rd3 Rxf4
24. Re1 Rxd4 (?)
25. Rxd4 Nxc2
26. Rg4+ Kf8
27. Re2 Rxa2
28. Ra4 Rb2
29. Rd2

We are up the exchange for 3 pawns but black's pawns will fall like flies in the end game. We have winning chances here.

And a move earlier
23...Rxd4 thier is no Rg4+

LaurV · 2016-01-26, 15:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

LaurV, can you elaborate more on:
18. Qxb6 axb6
19. Rfd1 Re5

20 f4 Re2
21 Nd4 Re4
22 b3 Ne3
23 Rd3

Extremely balanced, no pawn gone our structure much better.
But then:
23...Rxd4 (!)
24 Rxd4 Nxc2
25 Rad1 Nxd4
26 Rxd4 Rxa2
27 Rxd5 and now most probably ...Ra5, because if we exchange, black unscrambles the pawns, good for him, better than if he runs his rook after our pawns. But 28 Rd6. he has one more pawn, but he has 5 pawns on 3 columns and we have 4 pawns on 4 columns and we have the sente, and our king can reach the center much faster - his king is blocked by the e wall of pawns in f6-f7.

This is draw if I play it with one hand tied to my back...

gd_barnes · 2016-01-26, 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurV

20 f4 Re2
21 Nd4 Re4
22 b3 Ne3
23 Rd3

Extremely balanced, no pawn gone our structure much better.
But then:
23...Rxd4 (!)
24 Rxd4 Nxc2
25 Rad1 Nxd4
26 Rxd4 Rxa2
27 Rxd5 and now most probably ...Ra5, because if we exchange, black unscrambles the pawns, good for him, better than if he runs his rook after our pawns. But 28 Rd6. he has one more pawn, but he has 5 pawns on 3 columns and we have 4 pawns on 4 columns and we have the sente, and our king can reach the center much faster - his king is blocked by the e wall of pawns in f6-f7.

This is draw if I play it with one hand tied to my back...

Because we can draw this line with one hand tied behind our back

, I think that 23...Rxf4 is much better than 23...Rxd4 for black. Here is an improvement on the entire line that I showed earlier, which I believe to be the best for both sides:

18. Qxb6 axb6
19. Rfd1 Re5
20. f4 Re2
21. Nd4 Re4
22. b3 Ne3
23. Rd3 Rxf4
24. Re1 Ng4
25. a4 Ne5
26. Rg3+ (I previously had suggested Rd2, which I now believe is not as good.)
26...Kf8
27. c3

LaurV, can you post your opinion on this line for both sides and the resulting position? Do you agree that Rxf4 is better than Rxd4 for black's 23rd move?

gd_barnes · 2016-01-26, 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

And a move earlier
23...Rxd4 thier is no Rg4+

It doesn't matter. We are still in good shape with:

18. Qxb6 axb6
19. Rfd1 Re5
20. f4 Re2
21. Nd4 Re4
22. b3 Ne3
23. Rd3 Rxd4
24. Rxd4 Nxc2
25. Rad1 Nxd4
26. Rxd4 Rxa2
27. Rxd5 (any reasonable)
28. Rd6 or Rd7 or Rb5 or Rb3

...and we either quickly recover the pawn or our king is able to approach the center much more quickly.

What is great about these resulting positions is why I'd like to see us swap queens here. Our king can much more quickly approach the center in the end game, which is why LaurV is seeing nothing but draws in most of his deep analysis. Black's pawns are badly blocking his king. Also we can attack doubled pawns on both flanks.

richs · 2016-01-27, 03:03

Here is how I think the line will go with the first move requested by Mr. Barnes in post #25, 18. ... Re2. Having looked at this move in detail, I think it is a less desirable move that I doubt our opponent will choose.

18. Rab1 Re2
19. Rf2 Re6
20. Qg4+ Kh8
21. Nd4 Re5
22. Qf4 Rae8

I still believe that 18. Rab1 is our move. I'll post a deeper analysis tomorrow even though quite a few people have voted.

LaurV · 2016-01-27, 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

I think that 23...Rxf4 is much better than 23...Rxd4 for black.
<snip>
LaurV, can you post your opinion on this line for both sides and the resulting position? Do you agree that Rxf4 is better than Rxd4 for black's 23rd move?

Certainly not. We keep all the queen pawns if he takes f4, we may even win there. After white a4, black has effectively no move! That is why I "corrected" your initial version, signaled by an exclamation mark on the Rxd4 (!) move, because I considered it the best black reply in that position.

Anyhow, I voted to exchange the queens, here I can see an end of the game in a draw. The other move may be better (or not) but keeping the queens on board is not on our advantage against a machine - it may be the best way against a human player, but not against SF. Additionally, if he plays Rd7 as in my initial sketch, we may have a chance to an eternal chess there (Rg4+ Kf8 Rh4 Kg8, etc).

gd_barnes · 2016-01-27, 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurV

Certainly not. We keep all the queen pawns if he takes f4, we may even win there. After white a4, black has effectively no move! That is why I "corrected" your initial version, signaled by an exclamation mark on the Rxd4 (!) move, because I considered it the best black reply in that position.

Anyhow, I voted to exchange the queens, here I can see an end of the game in a draw. The other move may be better (or not) but keeping the queens on board is not on our advantage against a machine - it may be the best way against a human player, but not against SF. Additionally, if he plays Rd7 as in my initial sketch, we may have a chance to an eternal chess there (Rg4+ Kf8 Rh4 Kg8, etc).

I had not considered 23...Rxf4 24. a4 in that line. a4 is an excellent move for us! I agree that your line is best for both sides.

LaurV · 2016-01-27, 10:07

I wasn't talking about 24.a4, but about 25.a4, exactly as in your version. Otherwise he still can take the horse and beat c2. We move a4 only after he moves the horse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

18. Qxb6 axb6
19. Rfd1 Re5
20. f4 Re2
21. Nd4 Re4
22. b3 Ne3
23. Rd3 Rxf4
24. Re1 Ng4
25. a4

In that position, white has all the queen pawns, I think white wins there (or at least we'll have a much better finale in our favor).

Edit: I see 4 votes already, now the funniest would be if we take the queen and he doesn't beat with the pawn!

Brian-E · 2016-01-27, 11:44

I've been away for a couple of days and now see many detailed contributions and analysis which will take me a long time to work through. I don't know if I will have more to say.

My vote will be cast, but I will hold off until near the time when the poll expires because the issue is clearly not resolved.

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2016-01-27, 03:03	#40
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	Here is how I think the line will go with the first move requested by Mr. Barnes in post #25, 18. ... Re2. Having looked at this move in detail, I think it is a less desirable move that I doubt our opponent will choose. 18. Rab1 Re2 19. Rf2 Re6 20. Qg4+ Kh8 21. Nd4 Re5 22. Qf4 Rae8 I still believe that 18. Rab1 is our move. I'll post a deeper analysis tomorrow even though quite a few people have voted.

2016-01-27, 11:44	#44
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	I've been away for a couple of days and now see many detailed contributions and analysis which will take me a long time to work through. I don't know if I will have more to say. My vote will be cast, but I will hold off until near the time when the poll expires because the issue is clearly not resolved.