Move 18 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish

MooMoo2 · 2016-01-23, 06:26

The poll for move 17 just closed, and the most popular move was Qd4. Stockfish responded with 17...Qb6, and the FEN is:
r5k1/pp2rp1p/1q3p2/3p4/2nQ4/1N3P2/PPP3PP/R4RK1 w - - 2 18

Game so far: 1.e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. exd5 exd5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. Bxd7+ Nbxd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 O-O 12. Nf5 Re8 13. Nxe7+ Rxe7 14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 Nc4 16. Bxf6 gxf6 17. Qd4 Qb6

Brian-E · 2016-01-23, 15:50

Our b pawn is attacked once again and Black is also threatening to invade with a rook on e2. But perhaps we can hope for an endgame where Black's pawn weaknesses start to tell.

18.Qxb6 axb6 doesn't look like a very good idea to me at the moment. Black's pressure against our queenside pawns will be just too strong, and we lose at least a pawn, I think, while the black rooks look like invading as well.

18.Rfb1 is far too ugly to look worth considering, I think.

But 18.Rab1 Qxd4 19.Nxd4 (and if 19...Nd2 20.Rfe1) looks okay to me at the moment.

Other moves seem to lose the b pawn at once, or worse.

WMHalsdorf · 2016-01-23, 16:05

The only move I see is 18.Rab1

science_man_88 · 2016-01-23, 16:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Our b pawn is attacked once again and Black is also threatening to invade with a rook on e2. But perhaps we can hope for an endgame where Black's pawn weaknesses start to tell.

18.Qxb6 axb6 doesn't look like a very good idea to me at the moment. Black's pressure against our queenside pawns will be just too strong, and we lose at least a pawn, I think, while the black rooks look like invading as well.

18.Rfb1 is far too ugly to look worth considering, I think.

But 18.Rab1 Qxd4 19.Nxd4 (and if 19...Nd2 20.Rfe1) looks okay to me at the moment.

Other moves seem to lose the b pawn at once, or worse.

well right now we have an absolute pin on our queen king line. in theory we could always make it not absolute by making the knight go in front of our queen but then there's not really much we can do with the queen at this point without opening a check either directly or on the next capture if we moved it after blocking. after your line we get forked so one of our rooks is almost surely gone with the other forced to move then we are practically forced into capturing the opponent's rook or knight to stave off defeat another move ? edit2 ?:I'd pick knight at that point I think because though the rook makes them less tactical in one respect they can just use the king defensively to put our rook into a position to be captured by getting so close to it.

LaurV · 2016-01-23, 18:29

Anything wrong with taking the queen? We started to simplify already,

He either beats with the horse and lose all the threats there, or beats with the pawn (as I said few moves ago, beating with the pawn is most probable, this keeps the threats of the knight, and opens the threat on column "a", with the rook) and he has a terrible structure of the pawns, two times doubles.

So: 18: Qxb6, axb6 19. Rfd1 - let him take the pawn, we take d5 etc. His pawns are really placed very ugly now.

I go to sleep, 1:35AM here...

Brian-E · 2016-01-23, 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurV

Anything wrong with taking the queen? We started to simplify already,

He either beats with the horse and lose all the threats there, or beats with the pawn (as I said few moves ago, beating with the pawn is most probable, this keeps the threats of the knight, and opens the threat on column "a", with the rook) and he has a terrible structure of the pawns, two times doubles.

So: 18: Qxb6, axb6 19. Rfd1 - let him take the pawn, we take d5 etc. His pawns are really placed very ugly now.

I go to sleep, 1:35AM here...

I agree that Black will recapture with the a pawn and I think it leads to a position in which we're collapsing.

After your suggested 18.Qxb6 axb6 19.Rfd1 Black has 19...Re2 with the horrible threat of ...Ne3 (hitting g2) as well as ...Rxc2.

gd_barnes · 2016-01-23, 19:39

I don't have a lot of time to look at this but I am confident in this analysis:

Rab1 is bad. It's way too defensive. I completely agree with LaurV (as usual).

Let SF take the pawn. We would have excellent counter attacks on his d pawn and we could come behind his knight on b2 with a rook with Rab1 and ultimately pluck away his b pawns.

As stated by LaurV, we are in very good shape here with:

18. Qxb6 axb6 19. Rfd1

His horrible pawn structure will hurt him bad in the end game.

Brian-E · 2016-01-24, 15:20

It looks like we may well fail to reach a general consensus for this move, in which case the voting will decide it.

My take is that we have no chance of middlegame activity once the queens are off the board, sacrificing pawns doesn't look to me like changing that, and our b pawn needs protection. Secondly, I think we should let Black do the exchanging of queens. If Black exchanges, our knight reaches d4 (protecting the invasion square e2) without loss of tempo. If Black ducks the exchange we have chances of initiative against Black's wide open castled king. Whereas if we exchange then we have invasion down the a file to contend with as well.

science_man_88 · 2016-01-24, 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian-E

and our b pawn needs protection.

which currently has if the queen isn't taken and able to move ( which currently it can't because it got us pinned to protect the king trying to protect the pawn. not to mention it could be with Rab1 but you insist on not really doing either,because keeping the queen there without exchange is what's currently protecting the b pawn, once their queen captures ours if we accept the exchange with Nxd4, Nxb2 can happen without defense. so really none of the plans you listed protect it long term and the line you suggested earlier lands us with capturing the knight or the rook but not both so in theory their king can either chase our rook for a little bit while we better it's pawn structure or we can take the knight out and leave us open to attack from the rook. either way we lose control if we can even say we have any now.

Brian-E · 2016-01-24, 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by science_man_88

which currently has if the queen isn't taken and able to move ( which currently it can't because it got us pinned to protect the king trying to protect the pawn. not to mention it could be with Rab1 but you insist on not really doing either,because keeping the queen there without exchange is what's currently protecting the b pawn, once their queen captures ours if we accept the exchange with Nxd4, Nxb2 can happen without defense. so really none of the plans you listed protect it long term and the line you suggested earlier lands us with capturing the knight or the rook but not both so in theory their king can either chase our rook for a little bit while we better it's pawn structure or we can take the knight out and leave us open to attack from the rook. either way we lose control if we can even say we have any now.

I didn't make myself clear, sorry. I'm advocating protecting the b pawn now with 18.Rab1, as several other people already have done as well.

Protection of our c and g pawns (and possibly unpinning our queen if Black leaves the queens on the board) would come from our later move Rf2.

I agree with the latter part of your posting insofar as I think that we are already in trouble.

science_man_88 · 2016-01-24, 15:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian-E

I didn't make myself clear, sorry. I'm advocating protecting the b pawn now with 18.Rab1, as several other people already have done as well.

Protection of our c and g pawns (and possibly unpinning our queen if Black leaves the queens on the board) would come from our later move Rf2.

I agree with the latter part of your posting insofar as I think that we are already in trouble.

okay I see why the blocking the queen attack is futile it allows a double attack on the b pawn however I don't think the exchange idea is bad because Qxb6 axb Nc1 protects the a pawn until it can move in which case for the time being our rook protects it. however I still don't see a good way to allow the b pawn to work in all this. the real downfall is if Nxb6 occurs. then the exchange becomes nearly pointless. though I also see the reason why Nxb6 would occur because if it weren't to and the pawn does recapture if the knight ever does capture our a pawn and then move from the file the rooks battle we win putting the king in check the other rook blocks we take it the king is forced out of hiding and we recapture the knight in one scenario. leaving the computer with pawns and king against two rooks pawns a knight and a king I think. I'd be willing to pretend to be a stupid opponent against you in this thread to show you what I mean.

2016-01-23, 06:26	#1
MooMoo2 "Michael Kwok" Mar 2006 2234₈ Posts	Move 18 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish The poll for move 17 just closed, and the most popular move was Qd4. Stockfish responded with 17...Qb6, and the FEN is: r5k1/pp2rp1p/1q3p2/3p4/2nQ4/1N3P2/PPP3PP/R4RK1 w - - 2 18 Game so far: 1.e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. exd5 exd5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. Bxd7+ Nbxd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 O-O 12. Nf5 Re8 13. Nxe7+ Rxe7 14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 Nc4 16. Bxf6 gxf6 17. Qd4 Qb6 Attached Thumbnails Last fiddled with by MooMoo2 on 2016-01-23 at 06:27 Reason: fixed FEN

2016-01-23, 18:29	#5
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 24063₈ Posts	Anything wrong with taking the queen? We started to simplify already, He either beats with the horse and lose all the threats there, or beats with the pawn (as I said few moves ago, beating with the pawn is most probable, this keeps the threats of the knight, and opens the threat on column "a", with the rook) and he has a terrible structure of the pawns, two times doubles. So: 18: Qxb6, axb6 19. Rfd1 - let him take the pawn, we take d5 etc. His pawns are really placed very ugly now. I go to sleep, 1:35AM here... Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2016-01-23 at 18:37

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2016-01-23, 15:50	#2
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	Our b pawn is attacked once again and Black is also threatening to invade with a rook on e2. But perhaps we can hope for an endgame where Black's pawn weaknesses start to tell. 18.Qxb6 axb6 doesn't look like a very good idea to me at the moment. Black's pressure against our queenside pawns will be just too strong, and we lose at least a pawn, I think, while the black rooks look like invading as well. 18.Rfb1 is far too ugly to look worth considering, I think. But 18.Rab1 Qxd4 19.Nxd4 (and if 19...Nd2 20.Rfe1) looks okay to me at the moment. Other moves seem to lose the b pawn at once, or worse.

2016-01-23, 16:05	#3
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	The only move I see is 18.Rab1

2016-01-23, 19:39	#7
gd_barnes "Gary" May 2007 Overland Park, KS 5×2,459 Posts	I don't have a lot of time to look at this but I am confident in this analysis: Rab1 is bad. It's way too defensive. I completely agree with LaurV (as usual). Let SF take the pawn. We would have excellent counter attacks on his d pawn and we could come behind his knight on b2 with a rook with Rab1 and ultimately pluck away his b pawns. As stated by LaurV, we are in very good shape here with: 18. Qxb6 axb6 19. Rfd1 His horrible pawn structure will hurt him bad in the end game.

2016-01-24, 15:20	#8
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	It looks like we may well fail to reach a general consensus for this move, in which case the voting will decide it. My take is that we have no chance of middlegame activity once the queens are off the board, sacrificing pawns doesn't look to me like changing that, and our b pawn needs protection. Secondly, I think we should let Black do the exchanging of queens. If Black exchanges, our knight reaches d4 (protecting the invasion square e2) without loss of tempo. If Black ducks the exchange we have chances of initiative against Black's wide open castled king. Whereas if we exchange then we have invasion down the a file to contend with as well.