Move 16 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish

MooMoo2 · 2016-01-11, 04:23

The poll for move 15 just closed, and the most popular move was Bg5. Stockfish responded with 15...Nc4, and the FEN is:
r2q2k1/pp2rppp/5n2/3p2B1/2n5/1N3P2/PPP3PP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 3 16

Game so far: 1.e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. exd5 exd5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. Bxd7+ Nbxd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 O-O 12. Nf5 Re8 13. Nxe7+ Rxe7 14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 Nc4

WMHalsdorf · 2016-01-11, 05:12

I see only 2 choices 16. Bxf6 and 16. Qd4

LaurV · 2016-01-11, 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by MooMoo2

The poll for move 15 just closed,

Ha! I didn't see the pool and I was waiting for it, to vote!

Anyhow, it turned ok, I would have voted Bg5 too..

Brian-E · 2016-01-11, 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

I see only 2 choices 16. Bxf6 and 16. Qd4

I think I agree. The only other move which seems to me worth any attention is 16.Re1, but since it allows the reply 16...Qb6+ protecting f6 amongst other things, I don't think it's a good idea.

A quick glance at a few lines leads me to think that 16.Bxf6 and 16.Qd4 both lead to similar or identical positions. I think we want to play both moves, and the order in which we play them might not matter. I don't know which is better.

---

@LaurV Yes, I had noticed you hadn't voted. Some of us held our vote off until late on anyway in case new insights were posted, but I looked just a couple of hours before the poll closed and saw you had yet to vote. Thought about sending you a reminder, but by then it would probably have been too late, and you had made it clear you wanted 15.Bg5 anyway, which was by then clearly going to be the choice.

WMHalsdorf · 2016-01-11, 14:59

The reason I didn't mention 16. Re1 is that it leads to a lose of the pawn on b2.

science_man_88 · 2016-01-11, 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

The reason I didn't mention 16. Re1 is that it leads to a lose of the pawn on b2.

okay but in theory anything can lead to something that's playable for example Qb1 still not guaranteed to stop Nxb2 the only moves that deter that loss are Rab1,Qb1,Qc1 or Qd4. edit:Qc1 is a bad choice if done after the fact as it loses a tempo as the knight can attack the queen on next move.

WMHalsdorf · 2016-01-11, 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by science_man_88

okay but in theory anything can lead to something that's playable for example Qb1 still not guaranteed to stop Nxb2 the only moves that deter that loss are Rab1,Qb1,Qc1 or Qd4. edit:Qc1 is a bad choice if done after the fact as it loses a tempo as the knight can attack the queen on next move.

16. Qc1 Qb6+ 17. Kh1 Rae8
16. Qb1 Re2 17. Nd4 Qb6
16. Rb1 Ne3 17. Bxe3 Rxe3
None are good for us.

science_man_88 · 2016-01-11, 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

16. Qc1 Qb6+ 17. Kh1 Rae8
16. Qb1 Re2 17. Nd4 Qb6
16. Rb1 Ne3 17. Bxe3 Rxe3
None are good for us.

I didn't say they were. I was simply saying that those were the options that would deter what you deemed necessary to stop in order to propose a move Qd4 is the only one that both deters and you haven't found a bad line for.

gd_barnes · 2016-01-11, 23:03

I feel like we should play Bxf6 right away and then follow it up with Qd4. Otherwise I feel like there are some tactical lines that SF can play that may help him avoid doubling and isolating his pawns.

I will be out of town for two weeks starting tomorrow but will be on sporadically to throw in my two cents.

WMHalsdorf · 2016-01-12, 02:00

16. Bxf6 gxf6 17. Qd4 Qb6
18. Rfd1 or 18. Rab1 don't know which is best now.

2016-01-13, 01:05

Qd4

SF is ready to attack and all of its pieces are covered.
As I see it, trading out rooks will increase the value of the bishop..then work on closing the loop on black's castled position by bringing out white's other rook,

2016-01-11, 04:23	#1
MooMoo2 "Michael Kwok" Mar 2006 1180₁₀ Posts	Move 16 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish The poll for move 15 just closed, and the most popular move was Bg5. Stockfish responded with 15...Nc4, and the FEN is: r2q2k1/pp2rppp/5n2/3p2B1/2n5/1N3P2/PPP3PP/R2Q1RK1 w - - 3 16 Game so far: 1.e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. exd5 exd5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. Bxd7+ Nbxd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 O-O 12. Nf5 Re8 13. Nxe7+ Rxe7 14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 Nc4 Attached Thumbnails

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2016-01-11, 05:12	#2
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	I see only 2 choices 16. Bxf6 and 16. Qd4

2016-01-11, 14:59	#5
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 201₁₆ Posts	The reason I didn't mention 16. Re1 is that it leads to a lose of the pawn on b2.

2016-01-11, 23:03	#9
gd_barnes "Gary" May 2007 Overland Park, KS 5·2,459 Posts	I feel like we should play Bxf6 right away and then follow it up with Qd4. Otherwise I feel like there are some tactical lines that SF can play that may help him avoid doubling and isolating his pawns. I will be out of town for two weeks starting tomorrow but will be on sporadically to throw in my two cents.

2016-01-12, 02:00	#10
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³·19 Posts	16. Bxf6 gxf6 17. Qd4 Qb6 18. Rfd1 or 18. Rab1 don't know which is best now.

2016-01-13, 01:05	#11
jwaltos 2,441 Posts	Qd4 SF is ready to attack and all of its pieces are covered. As I see it, trading out rooks will increase the value of the bishop..then work on closing the loop on black's castled position by bringing out white's other rook,