Move 14 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish

[The Carnivore]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

What the 2014 match between world number 2 Nakamura and Stockfish, a match which Nakamura lost despite being given pawn odds in some games and computer software (Rybka) help in others, demonstrates to me, is that we don't have a snowflake's chance in a furnace of avoiding defeat in this game.

Stockfish is even stronger now, due to a year's worth of software improvements since the 2014 match and more thinking time than it got in that match (hours per move vs. minutes per move).

We might have to offer a draw early, like in this game http://www.365chess.com/game.php?gid=2595252
and hope that MooMoo2/Stockfish accepts.

[gd_barnes]

Interesting. Let's not be so hasty about playing Be3 which I had originally agreed with. Although it appears to be the most played in the databases, LaurV makes some great points about f3 especially since we are playing for a draw:

14. f3 Qb6+ 15. Qd4 Qxd4+ 16. Nxd4 Nd6 17. Bf4 and we are in good shape for a draw.

-or from above-

16...Nc5 17. Bg5 (any reasonable move) 18. Bxf6 gxf6 and black's king pawns are doubled and isolated.

In looking at those lines above in response to 14. f3, I do not believe that SF will play 14....Qb6+ in response. As LaurV stated, more likely would be:

14. f3 Nd6. Then we have 15. Bg5. We continue to put pressure on the knights and the d-pawn while developing. From there ultimately we can play Qd4 with continued pressure in the center and on the knights with the ultimate threat of doubling and isolating black's king pawns.

Good suggestion LaurV!

[gd_barnes]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Indeed. And since both those lines are clearly simple wins for Black, we are forced, after 14.f3 Qb6+ to interpose a piece on d4, after which Black - after a possible exchange of queens, has the option of retreating the knight to c5 instead of d6. This knight on c5 can then later go to e6 to support a possible ...d5-d4 push, and that, positionally speaking, is a move we absolutely want to prevent.

I disagree. Extending what I stated in the above post:

14. f3 Qb6+ 15. Qd4 Qxd4+ 16. Nxd4 Nc5 17. Bg5 Rae8 (or any other reasonable move) 18. Bxf6 gxf6. 19. Rad1 eventually followed by c3 easily prevents any advance by the d-pawn. Here although black might have nicely doubled rooks he also has a terrible pawn structure. We are in good shape.

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

I disagree. Extending what I stated in the above post:

14. f3 Qb6+ 15. Qd4 Qxd4+ 16. Nxd4 Nc5 17. Bg5 Rae8 (or any other reasonable move) 18. Bxf6 gxf6. 19. Rad1 eventually followed by c3 easily prevents any advance by the d-pawn. Here although black might have nicely doubled rooks he also has a terrible pawn structure. We are in good shape.

I think wins here is meant as in wins free pieces.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

I disagree. Extending what I stated in the above post:

14. f3 Qb6+ 15. Qd4 Qxd4+ 16. Nxd4 Nc5 17. Bg5 Rae8 (or any other reasonable move) 18. Bxf6 gxf6. 19. Rad1 eventually followed by c3 easily prevents any advance by the d-pawn. Here although black might have nicely doubled rooks he also has a terrible pawn structure. We are in good shape.

Yes, agreed. Our threat of Bc1-g5xf6 prevents the manoeuvre ...Ne4-c5-e6.

14.f3 does seem to be a reasonable move. 14.Be3 is as well.

[WMHalsdorf]

It appears that no one has considered the reply Nd6 to f3 followed up by Nc4

[axn]

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

It appears that no one has considered the reply Nd6 to f3 followed up by Nc4

Originally Posted by LaurV

So, 14.f3 Nd6 (forced), 15. Bg5 (links the horse, if not Re8, we exchange and uncover black king, very convenient for us to give back the bishop's advantage) Re8 (forced, as explained), then 16 Re1, Rxe1 17 Qxe1. Here few more pieces eliminated, and we are still strong on board.

Can you explain the line that leads to Nc4 if we play 15.Bg5?

[gd_barnes]

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

It appears that no one has considered the reply Nd6 to f3 followed up by Nc4

Originally Posted by axn

Can you explain the line that leads to Nc4 if we play 15.Bg5?

I had casually mentioned Qd4 with continued pressure in the center and on the knights regardless of black's response to 15. Bg5 here:

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

14. f3 Nd6. Then we have 15. Bg5. We continue to put pressure on the knights and the d-pawn while developing. From there ultimately we can play Qd4 with continued pressure in the center and on the knights with the ultimate threat of doubling and isolating black's king pawns.

Good suggestion LaurV!

The line as I see it that includes a Nc4 move by black:
14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 Nc4 16. Qd4

That's a lot of pressure for us in the middle and on black's center pawn and on the f6 knight. Black only has a minor eventual threat of Nxb2 but our threats are bigger. Also black would be out of position for several moves if he went after such a flank attack.

[WMHalsdorf]

14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 prevents Nc4 which forces Nde8 to preserve the pawn structure on the kingside

[gd_barnes]

I pushed some pieces around for a couple of hours today as I believe this could be a ground breaking game for this variation. I really like 14. f3 for us here. I strongly feel that SF will respond with 14...Nd6 instead of immediately swapping off the queens with 14...Qb6+.

Since we haven't discussed follow up lines for 14. f3 Nd6 much yet, before MooMoo starts the voting I'd like to hear any more concerns that others have about it. I believe that reasonable responses for black's move 15 after 14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 include:

15...Re8 (a)
15...Re5 (b)
15...Nc4 (c)

Follow up responses by us could be:
(a) 16. Bxf6 Qxf6 17. Qxd5. (We are up a pawn but black has decent positional compensation for it. Ultimately we could give back the pawn to regain position.)

(b) 16. f4 Re4 17. Bxf6 Qxf6 18. Qxd5 (Black gets the pawn back fairly quickly but the game is very drawish at that point.)
[Also note that we could try 16. Bh4 here keeping the pressure on the f6 knight.]

(c) 16. Qd4 (Protects b2, puts added pressure on f6, and sets up future added pressure on d5.)

All of these variations look good for us. I feel like no matter which one SF plays we will eventually double and isolate his king pawns or temporarily win his d-pawn forcing him to play catch up and regain it back.

If anyone can point us to some high-level games where 14. f3 has been played here, I'd like to see them.

LaurV, once again, great suggestion!

[gd_barnes]

Originally Posted by WMHalsdorf

14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 prevents Nc4 which forces Nde8 to preserve the pawn structure on the kingside

I do not see SF playing 14. f3 Nd6 15. Bg5 Nde8. His pieces would be bottled up and falling all over each other. We have any number of moves that we could make at this point. I believe we would have a clear edge here.