Move 14 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish - Page 2

axn · 2015-12-30, 02:57

An advantage of Be3 is that it would keep is in the book for a little while longer. Out of the 18 games available in this position (@ database.chessbase.com), 13 have gone with Be3, 3 with f3, 1 each with Nd4 and Re1.

What about moves like c3 and Nd4?

MooMoo2 · 2015-12-30, 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by axn

SF is not using opening book** or EGTB in this game.

** We (humans) however are consulting chess databases to help with our move selections, but we'll soon be "out of book"

Yup, you're right. Stockfish played on its own without a book from move 1.

Stats:

Code:

Move No.	Depth (ply)	Nodes Searched
1		34		2,754,754,703	
2		35		2,775,255,936	
3		37		7,823,890,345	
4		36		4,748,231,994	
5		34		3,046,969,375	
6		35		1,707,757,893	
7		36		1,800,523,731	
8		37		4,257,172,692	
9		37		3,632,048,539	
10		36		5,122,109,377	
11		35		2,971,667,745	
12		36		8,759,943,111	
13		35		3,408,909,487

I also have Stockfish's evaluation at the end of each move, and I'll post that info after the game ends.

LaurV · 2015-12-30, 11:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by axn

An advantage of Be3 is that it would keep is in the book for a little while longer. Out of the 18 games available in this position (@ database.chessbase.com), 13 have gone with Be3, 3 with f3, 1 each with Nd4 and Re1.

What about moves like c3 and Nd4?

I think f3 is a better move here. This forces back the black horse, then we hit the other horse. Towards "keeping the book for a little longer", or better said, "toward those 34 moves" that we had allocated for us to live

, I think the forced way is the best way. Few moves ago I was talking about black Rxe7, actually at that time it was a "hope", or "pray for it", because I was more afraid of Qxe7. Right now, this works in our advantage, because black didn't double the Q+R on the e7/e8 column, so we can play Re1 and force the exchange, if we want to play for a draw.

So, 14.f3 Nd6 (forced), 15. Bg5 (links the horse, if not Re8, we exchange and uncover black king, very convenient for us to give back the bishop's advantage) Re8 (forced, as explained), then 16 Re1, Rxe1 17 Qxe1. Here few more pieces eliminated, and we are still strong on board.

science_man_88 · 2015-12-30, 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurV

So, 14.f3 Nd6 (forced), 15. Bg5 (links the horse, if not Re8, we exchange and uncover black king, very convenient for us to give back the bishop's advantage) Re8 (forced, as explained), then 16 Re1, Rxe1 17 Qxe1. Here few more pieces eliminated, and we are still strong on board.

not forced right away actually I could easily see 14.f3 Qb6 + 15. Be3?! Qxe3+ for example. another possible line is 14.f3 Qb6+ 15.Kh1 Nf2 16.Rxf2 Qxf2.

Brian-E · 2015-12-30, 12:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by science_man_88

not forced right away actually I could easily see 14.f3 Qb6 + 15. Be3?! Qxe3+ for example. another possible line is 14.f3 Qb6+ 15.Kh1 Nf2 16.Rxf2 Qxf2.

Indeed. And since both those lines are clearly simple wins for Black, we are forced, after 14.f3 Qb6+ to interpose a piece on d4, after which Black - after a possible exchange of queens, has the option of retreating the knight to c5 instead of d6. This knight on c5 can then later go to e6 to support a possible ...d5-d4 push, and that, positionally speaking, is a move we absolutely want to prevent.

The above argument is my contribution for prefering 14.Be3 over 14.f3.

The other moves which axn mentions, 14.Nd4, 14.Re1, 14.c3, are all playable I think. But I give 14.Be3 the preference on the grounds that I would like us to get this final minor piece developed now.

science_man_88 · 2015-12-30, 13:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Indeed. And since both those lines are clearly simple wins for Black, we are forced, after 14.f3 Qb6+ to interpose a piece on d4, after which Black - after a possible exchange of queens, has the option of retreating the knight to c5 instead of d6. This knight on c5 can then later go to e6 to support a possible ...d5-d4 push, and that, positionally speaking, is a move we absolutely want to prevent.

The above argument is my contribution for prefering 14.Be3 over 14.f3.

The other moves which axn mentions, 14.Nd4, 14.Re1, 14.c3, are all playable I think. But I give 14.Be3 the preference on the grounds that I would like us to get this final minor piece developed now.

the one line I see potentially not failing from f3 is 14.f3 Qb6+ 15.Qd4 ... because even if black takes the queen it would be an exchange of pieces or retreat. edit: okay the knight works as well as you say d4 is the key as it has a piece protecting it. edit2: of course knowing that if I was black I'd go for Qc6 putting pressure on h2 which if f3 has been played may be protected by g3 only for a short time as it can be taken by Nxg3 hxg3 Qxg3+ ... Ng4 ... ( if not captured) Qh2#

LaurV · 2015-12-30, 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian-E

14.f3 Qb6+

Ha! Even better for us, exchanging the queens.
15 Qd4 Qxd4 16. Nxd4, SF still has to move the horse, we still have to move the bishop...

science_man_88 · 2015-12-30, 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurV

Ha! Even better for us, exchanging the queens.
15 Qd4 Qxd4 16. Nxd4, SF still has to move the horse, we still have to move the bishop...

my point was that you said it was forced at a certain move number and technically it can all be avoided with a sac Ng3 and then if we accept the queen on the other side possibility ( possibility only because of a potential capture ruining it for them) if we don't and play wrong game over because g3 attacks the retreat square and even on the other side re1 won't really save us if we don't capture Ng4 it will only draw the game out more by one move each.

LaurV · 2015-12-30, 15:58

Well, "forced" was more along the line "wherever else he puts the horse, it is lost", and not that black can not do any moves. He can move the king, and let the horse for us to take, if he likes

science_man_88 · 2015-12-30, 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaurV

Well, "forced" was more along the line "wherever else he puts the horse, it is lost", and not that black can not do any moves. He can move the king, and let the horse for us to take, if he likes

he's still not forced to do it immediately because he can put us in check and use that loss of tempo on our part to move it while developing pieces. it's also potentially possible for the two of his knights to work together to get a king queen fork.

WMHalsdorf · 2015-12-30, 17:50

I'm for Be3 since it prevents Black playing Qb6, prepares f3 and adds the possibility controling the center with either of our minor pieces. I also expect the reply to be the same as what SF played before.

2015-12-30, 15:58	#20
LaurV Romulan Interpreter "name field" Jun 2011 Thailand 41×251 Posts	Well, "forced" was more along the line "wherever else he puts the horse, it is lost", and not that black can not do any moves. He can move the king, and let the horse for us to take, if he likes Last fiddled with by LaurV on 2015-12-30 at 16:00

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2015-12-30, 02:57	#12
axn Jun 2003 2³×683 Posts	An advantage of Be3 is that it would keep is in the book for a little while longer. Out of the 18 games available in this position (@ database.chessbase.com), 13 have gone with Be3, 3 with f3, 1 each with Nd4 and Re1. What about moves like c3 and Nd4?

2015-12-30, 17:50	#22
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 1001₈ Posts	I'm for Be3 since it prevents Black playing Qb6, prepares f3 and adds the possibility controling the center with either of our minor pieces. I also expect the reply to be the same as what SF played before.