Move 14 discussion: Everyone vs stockfish

[MooMoo2]

The poll for move 13 just closed, and the most popular move was Nxe7+. Stockfish responded with 13...Rxe7, and the FEN is:
r2q2k1/pp2rppp/5n2/3p4/4n3/1N6/PPP2PPP/R1BQ1RK1 w - - 0 14

Game so far: 1.e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. exd5 exd5 6. Bb5+ Bd7 7. Bxd7+ Nbxd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dxc5 Nxc5 10. Nb3 Nce4 11. Nfd4 O-O 12. Nf5 Re8 13. Nxe7+ Rxe7

[Brian-E]

Is Stockfish experiencing déjà vu? This game from 2014 might suggest so:

Grandmaster Hikaru Nakamura was allowed the help of the program Rybka to achieve this draw against Stockfish, and we aren't allowed that luxury. But still, I think it's encouraging to see this already played game which starts with the same 13 moves for both sides, the same software playing Black, and a drawn result.

Nakamura (using Rybka for help) - Stockfish, Match, 2014

1. e4 e6 2. d4 d5 3. Nd2 c5 4. Ngf3 Nf6 5. ed5 ed5 6. Bb5 Bd7 7. Bd7 Nbd7 8. O-O Be7 9. dc5 Nc5 10. Nb3 Nce4
11. Nfd4 O-O 12. Nf5 Re8 13. Ne7 Re7 14. Be3 Rc8 15. Bd4 Nd7 16. Re1 b6 17. f3 Nec5 18. Re7 Qe7 19. Qd2 Nb3 20. ab3 Nc5
21. Bf2 Ne6 22. c3 Rd8 23. b4 h6 24. Qe2 Rd7 25. Rd1 Qg5 26. g3 Qf5 27. Kg2 h5 28. Qd3 Qd3 29. Rd3 g5 30. Kf1 f5
31. c4 Kf7 32. c5 d4 33. c6 Rd6 34. b5 Ke8 35. Ra3 Nc7 36. Ra7 Nb5 37. Ra8 Ke7 38. Rc8 d3 39. Ke1 Re6 40. Kd1 Re2
41. Bb6 Rb2 42. Bd8 Kd6 43. Bg5 Rh2 44. Bf4 Kc5 45. Ke1 h4 46. gh4 Rh4 47. Be3 Kd5 48. c7 Kc6 49. Rf8 Nc7 50. Kd2 f4
51. Rf4 Rf4 52. Bf4 Ne6 53. Be3 Kd5 54. Kd3 Ke5 55. f4 Kf5 56. Bd2 1/2-1/2

Nakamura played 14.Be3 here. That's my choice too at first glance. It's the most natural square to develop our bishop, I think, protecting the a7-g1 diagonal to prepare a later f2-f3 without allowing ...Qb6+, and strengthening our d4 square.

Any other suggested moves?

[R. Gerbicz]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

Is Stockfish experiencing déjà vu? This game from 2014 might suggest so:

Grandmaster Hikaru Nakamura was allowed the help of the program Rybka to achieve this draw against Stockfish, and we aren't allowed that luxury. But still, I think it's encouraging to see this already played game which starts with the same 13 moves for both sides, the same software playing Black, and a drawn result.

So Stockfish is still in the opening book, I would suggest to follow that game.
It could be better to disable the opening book, and possibly the endgame tablebases.

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by R. Gerbicz

So Stockfish is still in the opening book, I would suggest to follow that game.
It could be better to disable the opening book, and possibly the endgame tablebases.

I don't see anything regardless of our move developmentally those knights have the whole side shut down the whole g file is shut down as are h6,h5, and one of those knights makes Qd4 almost pointless.

[axn]

Originally Posted by R. Gerbicz

So Stockfish is still in the opening book, I would suggest to follow that game.
It could be better to disable the opening book, and possibly the endgame tablebases.

SF is not using opening book** or EGTB in this game. It is a coincidence that the moves have tracked that particular game. If the operating conditions for SF were different (more/less time, more/less thread, more/less memory, etc.), it might have responded differently at any juncture.

** We (humans) however are consulting chess databases to help with our move selections, but we'll soon be "out of book"

14.Be3

Ethical dilemma, if we are able to duplicate the prior drawn game, did we really play the game?

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by jwaltos

14.Be3

Ethical dilemma, if we are able to duplicate the prior drawn game, did we really play the game?

Yes, it wouldn't feel as if we'd played the game, would it?

But as I understand it, and axn also implies above, publicly available strong chess programs like Stockfish don't always play the same move when given the same position, so it isn't going to happen.

What the 2014 match between world number 2 Nakamura and Stockfish, a match which Nakamura lost despite being given pawn odds in some games and computer software (Rybka) help in others, demonstrates to me, is that we don't have a snowflake's chance in a furnace of avoiding defeat in this game. But we can at least pride ourselves on having kept a good position so far.

@science_man_88 Your continued pessimism about our current position is merely a matter of not understanding the position. Trust me, we're okay so far. And if you didn't look at Botvinnik's strategy against Bronstein in that game posted in an earlier thread and recommended to you, I suggest you look at it now to see how White can get play against Black's isolated pawn.

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by Brian-E

@science_man_88 Your continued pessimism about our current position is merely a matter of not understanding the position. Trust me, we're okay so far. And if you didn't look at Botvinnik's strategy against Bronstein in that game posted in an earlier thread and recommended to you, I suggest you look at it now to see how White can get play against Black's isolated pawn.

it's not the pawn I'm worried about but I'll stop commenting as it's clear it does nothing.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by science_man_88

it's not the pawn I'm worried about but I'll stop commenting as it's clear it does nothing.

No, please don't stop commenting.

I'm only trying to help you understand the position so that you can contribute meaningfully.

[gd_barnes]

I also like Be3 here keeping the queen off the big diagonal.

There is virtually zero chance that this game continues like the aforementioned game for even another 3-4 moves. It is up to MooMoo how long he allows SF to think. All that he has to do is vary the amount of time that he gives it to think to completely change the complexion of the game. He could let it think for up to a day or for just 1-2 minutes. Also, I do not like white's next move 15. Bd4 in that game. Moving the bishop twice in a row is a loss of tempo. I would vote against it.

Brian, I feel you are way too pessimistic about our chances. I feel that we have a 30-35% chance of a draw from this position.

[Brian-E]

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

Brian, I feel you are way too pessimistic about our chances. I feel that we have a 30-35% chance of a draw from this position.

Okay then. That's a good basis for continuing, in any case.