Move 3 discussion: Everyone vs. stockfish

[MooMoo2]

Here's the thread to discuss possible moves for the position below. So far, the most popular moves are Nd2, followed by exd5. e5 and Nc3 have also been brought up as alternate options.

[jwaltos]

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

Nc6? Huh? It is white to move. Do you mean Nc3?

Nope.
e5 is the move I am suggesting for white and a possible response from Stockfish is Nc6. Rationale provided.
I can quote no less an authority than Charlie Sheen on winning.

I can see how the game can be stretched out playing `book move` vs `book move` which in my (humble) opinion is a
memory test rather than a test of creativity. Knowing fundamental book forms are critical to winning but they will not
win the match.

[LaurV]

My choice is between Nc3 and exd5.

(I may explain why, if I get some time later, I can't use my lunch break today, because I am busy with something, I have to go to post office to receive some more hardware for TF/LL, hehe).

See, we already have divergences...

[axn]

My choice would (also) be the Advance variation, 3. e5. Why? Just because...

Well actually, it shows good results in http://chesstempo.com/game-database.html for games between 2600+ players. The mainline goes 3... c5 4.c3 Nc6 5. Nf3

[jwaltos]

Are we allowed to consult databases during this match? I followed up on the excellent links provided by both GB and axn after I committed to the move. If using these resources prior to making a move is `legal` then I will surely use them. Could someone please confirm?

[MooMoo2]

Originally Posted by jwaltos

Are we allowed to consult databases during this match?

Yup; consulting databases is allowed. Here's another one you can use:

http://www.chessgames.com/perl/explorer

[gd_barnes]

Originally Posted by jwaltos

Nope.
e5 is the move I am suggesting for white and a possible response from Stockfish is Nc6. Rationale provided.
I can quote no less an authority than Charlie Sheen on winning.

I can see how the game can be stretched out playing `book move` vs `book move` which in my (humble) opinion is a
memory test rather than a test of creativity. Knowing fundamental book forms are critical to winning but they will not
win the match.

OK. 3. e5 Nc6 is not very good for black. It blocks the immediate strong advance of the c pawn.Stockfish will definitely not respond with 3...Nc6 there. White is doing well after 4. Nf3. As axn said, we are allowed to refer to opening databases. Databases will not affect the integrity of the game. They are not a memory game. The game goes on far longer than a 10-15 move opening line. They will give us a small chance at a draw. I would suggest referring to either the one that I posted or the two that axn and MooMoo posted.

In the advance variation (3. e5), 3. ...c5 is by far the most played (and probably best) by black. The mainline here is 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6. It is certainly reasonable and is the 3rd most played move here behind 3. Nc3 and Nd2. But it draws far less and ends up more quickly in tactical positions. Both Brian and I are in favor of more quiet games. I think we need to decide quickly if we want to play quietly or for more sharp (tactical) lines. Computers are far better in tactical lines.

I strongly recommend against 3. exd5. Black is winning more than white in this line.

Edit: I see that axn already psoted the mainline in the advance variation so we agree on that.

[gd_barnes]

Originally Posted by axn

My choice would (also) be the Advance variation, 3. e5. Why? Just because...

Well actually, it shows good results in http://chesstempo.com/game-database.html for games between 2600+ players. The mainline goes 3... c5 4.c3 Nc6 5. Nf3

I like your database better than the one that I found so I'll use it instead. :-) Hum...well...it does show a higher percentage for white with e5 vs. Nd2 between 2600+ players. But there are no 2600+ players here that I am aware of. Stockfish of course is. I'm not sure if there are enough games in the database to know whether it is a statistically significant better position. If you go to all master-level games (2200+) and higher, Nd2 is doing better. At 2400+ all 3 moves appear to have about the same percentage, with more draws and fewer wins by both sides when playing Nd2. So it could go either way.

Nd2 is quieter and in all levels of players Nd2 draws more than e5 so I think it's a matter of how we want to play it. I think the choice is amongst Nc3, Nd2, and e5.

Btw, I'll be leaving town on Thursday so you'll only see my annoying commentary very sporadically for the two weeks after that. :-)

[LaurV]

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

I strongly recommend against 3. exd5. Black is winning more than white in this line.

I understand your concern, and I will look better into it when I arrive home tonight. I think is is a good move, but you may be right.
OTOH, I am against Nd2, white is "jailing" himself.

[science_man_88]

Originally Posted by gd_barnes

I like your database better than the one that I found so I'll use it instead. :-) Hum...well...it does show a higher percentage for white with e5 vs. Nd2 between 2600+ players. But there are no 2600+ players here that I am aware of. Stockfish of course is. I'm not sure if there are enough games in the database to know whether it is a statistically significant better position. If you go to all master-level games (2200+) and higher, Nd2 is doing better. At 2400+ all 3 moves appear to have about the same percentage, with more draws and fewer wins by both sides when playing Nd2. So it could go either way.

Nd2 is quieter and in all levels of players Nd2 draws more than e5 so I think it's a matter of how we want to play it. I think the choice is amongst Nc3, Nd2, and e5.

Btw, I'll be leaving town on Thursday so you'll only see my annoying commentary very sporadically for the two weeks after that. :-)

I guess I'll go with Nd2 with all the commentary.

[unconnected]

I prefer 3. Nd2 in this position, but I think against "pure" computer the best choice should be 3. Nc3