Move 21

Brian-E · 2015-06-27, 12:28

The move I suggested at the end of the last thread is clearly impossible now that I look at the position after their move 21.Qd3: 21..Ne5?? 22.Nxe5 protects g4 and forces resignation.

21...f5 just seems to leave us with a kingside full of holes after 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5 25.Bh5. Unless either of you can see an improvement for us, I don't think we can play it.

Getting out of the pin g4-c8 seems a priority to me. 21...Qb7 looks natural. (21...Qe8 is less active.) A possible alternative is to play 21...h5 first because this slight weakening of our kingside doesn't look too significant and if they reply 22.Bh3 they have blocked their queen's access to this square.

Any other suggestions?

WMHalsdorf · 2015-06-27, 15:40

[QUOTE=Brian-E;404894]The move I suggested at the end of the last thread is clearly impossible now that I look at the position after their move 21.Qd3: 21..Ne5?? 22.Nxe5 protects g4 and forces resignation.

21...f5 just seems to leave us with a kingside full of holes after 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5 25.Bh5. Unless either of you can see an improvement for us, I don't think we can play it.

Getting out of the pin g4-c8 seems a priority to me. 21...Qb7 looks natural. (21...Qe8 is less active.) A possible alternative is to play 21...h5 first because this slight weakening of our kingside doesn't look too significant and if they reply 22.Bh3 they have blocked their queen's access to this square.

Any other suggestions?[/QUOTE]
21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5 25.Bh5 Nc2 26.Ra2 Rxb6 we get our pawn back with a strong queenside attack.
What is more interesting in this line is 21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.fxg6 Qxg4 25.gxh7 Kg7 which means is their a better move for white at move 24. I expect that at least 5 full moves are needed to find the best move possible for either side.

Brian-E · 2015-06-27, 16:15

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;404903]21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5 25.Bh5 Nc2 26.Ra2 Rxb6 we get our pawn back with a strong queenside attack.
What is more interesting in this line is 21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.fxg6 Qxg4 25.gxh7 Kg7 which means is their a better move for white at move 24. I expect that at least 5 full moves are needed to find the best move possible for either side.[/QUOTE]
21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5 25.Bh5 Nc2 26.b7 Qxb7 27.Qxf5 Nxa1 28.Bf7+ followed by Bd2-h6 and bringing their other rook out if necessary, doesn't look defensible to me. Do you assess this position differently? It is, I think, in any case a much better line for them than your second line where they have lost their attacking white-squared bishop and, with our knight still in central position, our attack looks just as threatening as theirs.

WMHalsdorf · 2015-06-27, 19:40

[QUOTE=Brian-E;404908]21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5 25.Bh5 Nc2 26.b7 Qxb7 27.Qxf5 Nxa1 28.Bf7+ followed by Bd2-h6 and bringing their other rook out if necessary, doesn't look defensible to me. Do you assess this position differently? It is, I think, in any case a much better line for them than your second line where they have lost their attacking white-squared bishop and, with our knight still in central position, our attack looks just as threatening as theirs.[/QUOTE]
Our f pawn may be pinned but it also is a thorn in their kingside attack which makes 26... Rxb7 a better choice.

Brian-E · 2015-06-27, 23:41

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;404916]Our f pawn may be pinned but it also is a thorn in their kingside attack which makes 26... Rxb7 a better choice.[/QUOTE]
I overlooked the possibility of 26...Rxb7.
21...f5 may indeed be a good move and I'm warming to it. I'll do some more work on it tomorrow morning.

Brian-E · 2015-06-28, 09:06

Looking further at the position, I am now concerned about the move (21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5) [U]25.Bd1[/U].

Their plan now of Ra1-a3-h3 after advancing their queen (or via the 4th rank if we play ...Nb5) seems crushing because (some of) our heavy pieces will remain stuck on the queenside blockading their b pawn.

Going back to our game position, I have to ask why we want to play such a weakening move as 21...f5. If it is not absolutely necessary, then my instinct tells me to avoid it and play 21...Qb7.

davar55 · 2015-06-28, 11:30

[QUOTE=Brian-E;404931]Looking further at the position, I am now concerned about the move (21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5) [U]25.Bd1[/U].

Their plan now of Ra1-a3-h3 after advancing their queen (or via the 4th rank if we play ...Nb5) seems crushing because (some of) our heavy pieces will remain stuck on the queenside blockading their b pawn.

Going back to our game position, I have to ask why we want to play such a weakening move as 21...f5. If it is not absolutely necessary, then my instinct tells me to avoid it and play 21...Qb7.[/QUOTE]

I like Qb7, just on general terms, not by analysis.
Plus it was a good book (QB VII) :) .

WMHalsdorf · 2015-06-28, 14:50

[QUOTE=Brian-E;404931]Looking further at the position, I am now concerned about the move (21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5) [U]25.Bd1[/U].

Their plan now of Ra1-a3-h3 after advancing their queen (or via the 4th rank if we play ...Nb5) seems crushing because (some of) our heavy pieces will remain stuck on the queenside blockading their b pawn.

Going back to our game position, I have to ask why we want to play such a weakening move as 21...f5. If it is not absolutely necessary, then my instinct tells me to avoid it and play 21...Qb7.[/QUOTE]
25.Bd1 appears to lead to a draw. The only move left other than 21...Qb7 is 21...Qe8 with the goal of moving it to b5 followed up with Nb3 if possible.

Brian-E · 2015-06-28, 23:45

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;404942]25.Bd1 appears to lead to a draw.[/QUOTE]
Why do you say that? I assess it as a dangerous kingside attack for White (who is also a pawn up for good measure). Where am I going wrong?
[QUOTE]The only move left other than 21...Qb7 is 21...Qe8 with the goal of moving it to b5 followed up with Nb3 if possible.[/QUOTE]
Yes, perhaps 21...Qe8 is indeed better than 21...Qb7. If they don't play Bxd7 our queen would be very passive on b7. Whereas from e8 we can hope to reach b5 as you say.

davar55, would you also be willing to change your preference from 21...Qb7 to 21...Qe8, or do you still stand by 21...Qb7?

WMHalsdorf · 2015-06-29, 04:16

[QUOTE=Brian-E;404961]Why do you say that? I assess it as a dangerous kingside attack for White (who is also a pawn up for good measure). Where am I going wrong?
[/QUOTE]
In order to get the rook on a1 to h3 they have to give up the pawn and we get our queen to the kingside but not quick enough to prevent a draw by repetition.

Brian-E · 2015-06-29, 09:41

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;404965]In order to get the rook on a1 to h3 they have to give up the pawn and we get our queen to the kingside but not quick enough to prevent a draw by repetition.[/QUOTE]
If you could write down the line(s) you have in mind, we could verify this.

2015-06-27, 12:28	#1
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Move 21 The move I suggested at the end of the last thread is clearly impossible now that I look at the position after their move 21.Qd3: 21..Ne5?? 22.Nxe5 protects g4 and forces resignation. 21...f5 just seems to leave us with a kingside full of holes after 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5 25.Bh5. Unless either of you can see an improvement for us, I don't think we can play it. Getting out of the pin g4-c8 seems a priority to me. 21...Qb7 looks natural. (21...Qe8 is less active.) A possible alternative is to play 21...h5 first because this slight weakening of our kingside doesn't look too significant and if they reply 22.Bh3 they have blocked their queen's access to this square. Any other suggestions? Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2015-06-27 at 12:31

2015-06-28, 23:45	#9
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;404942]25.Bd1 appears to lead to a draw.[/QUOTE] Why do you say that? I assess it as a dangerous kingside attack for White (who is also a pawn up for good measure). Where am I going wrong? [QUOTE]The only move left other than 21...Qb7 is 21...Qe8 with the goal of moving it to b5 followed up with Nb3 if possible.[/QUOTE] Yes, perhaps 21...Qe8 is indeed better than 21...Qb7. If they don't play Bxd7 our queen would be very passive on b7. Whereas from e8 we can hope to reach b5 as you say. davar55, would you also be willing to change your preference from 21...Qb7 to 21...Qe8, or do you still stand by 21...Qb7? Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2015-06-28 at 23:46 Reason: fixed quote tags

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Stockfish game: "Move 9 poll", not "move 2^74,207,281-1 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	1	2016-10-25 18:03
Stockfish game: "Move 8 poll", not "move 3.14159 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	5	2016-10-22 01:55
Stockfish game: "Move 5 poll", not "move 0 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	0	2016-10-05 15:50
Stockfish game: "Move 4 poll", not "move 100 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	0	2016-09-28 19:51
Stockfish game: "Move 2 poll", not "move 2 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	0	2016-09-19 19:56

2015-06-27, 15:40	#2
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 1000000001₂ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;404894]The move I suggested at the end of the last thread is clearly impossible now that I look at the position after their move 21.Qd3: 21..Ne5?? 22.Nxe5 protects g4 and forces resignation. 21...f5 just seems to leave us with a kingside full of holes after 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5 25.Bh5. Unless either of you can see an improvement for us, I don't think we can play it. Getting out of the pin g4-c8 seems a priority to me. 21...Qb7 looks natural. (21...Qe8 is less active.) A possible alternative is to play 21...h5 first because this slight weakening of our kingside doesn't look too significant and if they reply 22.Bh3 they have blocked their queen's access to this square. Any other suggestions?[/QUOTE] 21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5 25.Bh5 Nc2 26.Ra2 Rxb6 we get our pawn back with a strong queenside attack. What is more interesting in this line is 21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.fxg6 Qxg4 25.gxh7 Kg7 which means is their a better move for white at move 24. I expect that at least 5 full moves are needed to find the best move possible for either side.

2015-06-27, 16:15	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;404903]21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5 25.Bh5 Nc2 26.Ra2 Rxb6 we get our pawn back with a strong queenside attack. What is more interesting in this line is 21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.fxg6 Qxg4 25.gxh7 Kg7 which means is their a better move for white at move 24. I expect that at least 5 full moves are needed to find the best move possible for either side.[/QUOTE] 21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5 25.Bh5 Nc2 26.b7 Qxb7 27.Qxf5 Nxa1 28.Bf7+ followed by Bd2-h6 and bringing their other rook out if necessary, doesn't look defensible to me. Do you assess this position differently? It is, I think, in any case a much better line for them than your second line where they have lost their attacking white-squared bishop and, with our knight still in central position, our attack looks just as threatening as theirs.

2015-06-27, 19:40	#4
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;404908]21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5 25.Bh5 Nc2 26.b7 Qxb7 27.Qxf5 Nxa1 28.Bf7+ followed by Bd2-h6 and bringing their other rook out if necessary, doesn't look defensible to me. Do you assess this position differently? It is, I think, in any case a much better line for them than your second line where they have lost their attacking white-squared bishop and, with our knight still in central position, our attack looks just as threatening as theirs.[/QUOTE] Our f pawn may be pinned but it also is a thorn in their kingside attack which makes 26... Rxb7 a better choice.

2015-06-27, 23:41	#5
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;404916]Our f pawn may be pinned but it also is a thorn in their kingside attack which makes 26... Rxb7 a better choice.[/QUOTE] I overlooked the possibility of 26...Rxb7. 21...f5 may indeed be a good move and I'm warming to it. I'll do some more work on it tomorrow morning.

2015-06-28, 09:06	#6
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Looking further at the position, I am now concerned about the move (21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5) [U]25.Bd1[/U]. Their plan now of Ra1-a3-h3 after advancing their queen (or via the 4th rank if we play ...Nb5) seems crushing because (some of) our heavy pieces will remain stuck on the queenside blockading their b pawn. Going back to our game position, I have to ask why we want to play such a weakening move as 21...f5. If it is not absolutely necessary, then my instinct tells me to avoid it and play 21...Qb7.

2015-06-28, 11:30	#7
davar55 May 2004 New York City 4235₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;404931]Looking further at the position, I am now concerned about the move (21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5) [U]25.Bd1[/U]. Their plan now of Ra1-a3-h3 after advancing their queen (or via the 4th rank if we play ...Nb5) seems crushing because (some of) our heavy pieces will remain stuck on the queenside blockading their b pawn. Going back to our game position, I have to ask why we want to play such a weakening move as 21...f5. If it is not absolutely necessary, then my instinct tells me to avoid it and play 21...Qb7.[/QUOTE] I like Qb7, just on general terms, not by analysis. Plus it was a good book (QB VII) :) .

2015-06-28, 14:50	#8
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;404931]Looking further at the position, I am now concerned about the move (21...f5 22.exf5 Ne5 23.Nxe5 Bxe5 24.Qh3 gxf5) [U]25.Bd1[/U]. Their plan now of Ra1-a3-h3 after advancing their queen (or via the 4th rank if we play ...Nb5) seems crushing because (some of) our heavy pieces will remain stuck on the queenside blockading their b pawn. Going back to our game position, I have to ask why we want to play such a weakening move as 21...f5. If it is not absolutely necessary, then my instinct tells me to avoid it and play 21...Qb7.[/QUOTE] 25.Bd1 appears to lead to a draw. The only move left other than 21...Qb7 is 21...Qe8 with the goal of moving it to b5 followed up with Nb3 if possible.

2015-06-29, 04:16	#10
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 1000000001₂ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;404961]Why do you say that? I assess it as a dangerous kingside attack for White (who is also a pawn up for good measure). Where am I going wrong? [/QUOTE] In order to get the rook on a1 to h3 they have to give up the pawn and we get our queen to the kingside but not quick enough to prevent a draw by repetition.

2015-06-29, 09:41	#11
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;404965]In order to get the rook on a1 to h3 they have to give up the pawn and we get our queen to the kingside but not quick enough to prevent a draw by repetition.[/QUOTE] If you could write down the line(s) you have in mind, we could verify this.