Move 11

WMHalsdorf · 2015-03-17, 06:12

White has a wide range of moves to choose from.
11. Nd2 Qc7 12. Nc4 (no point in giving away what we're going to do until now.)
11. Qc2 requires discussion
11. Rb1 requires discussion
11. h3 requires discussion
11, a4 requires discussion
11. Re1 requires discussion

Brian-E · 2015-03-17, 15:00

Yes, lots of possible moves for White.

I suppose the immediate problem which they must solve is how to develop the c1 bishop without allowing us to reply ...Qxb2. But there are many ways of doing that, including the first three possibilities in your list above.

Brian-E · 2015-03-23, 11:03

Now that they've played 11.Nd2 we need to tackle the issues and come up with our reply.:smile:

They're almost certainly intending Nc4, I guess, c4 being a much better square for their knight than b3. Our attacked queen will be able to retreat to c7 as indicated by WMH in the first posting of this thread, but I'm not sure we need to play that until the queen is actually attacked.

We can't reasonable prevent Nc4, I suggest. If we play 11...Ne5 we are merely allowing them to attack this knight with gain of time by playing f4, possibly after the preparatory move Kh1.

I think our most pressing issue now is what to do with the c8 bishop. Both of you have at some point recently advocated putting it on b7. That isn't my preference. We may need to each put our point of view to see where we disagree.

Here's mine. I want us to exchange this c8 bishop, and preferably for their knight after they've placed it on c4, or otherwise possibly for their bishop on e2. I think our bishop is an awkward piece and an exchange would solve this. And I want us soon to place our heavy pieces on the b file which is our main asset in the position, aiming at their weak point on b2. Our bishop would get in the way of that on b7. Hence I now advocate 11...a5 intending ...Ba6.

What are your points of view, team-mates?

davar55 · 2015-03-23, 19:02

OK, 11 ..a5 12. c4 .. Ba6 makes some sense to me (rather than Bb7 as I earlier suggested).
We do force exchange of the Bs without too much loss of time.
Do we take back with the R or Q?

Oops, we have to save the Q first, don't we.
So 12. ..Q whereto, 13. whatthen .. us_then_what (Ba6 ?)
then if they take the B do we take back with R or Q?

WMHalsdorf · 2015-03-23, 21:15

11... Qc7 forces 12. Nc4 otherwise we get a chance to play c4 and place one of the knights on d3 or we can exchanged enough material to make further inroads into their queen side.

Brian-E · 2015-03-24, 18:38

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;398435]11... Qc7 forces 12. Nc4 otherwise we get a chance to play c4 and place one of the knights on d3 or we can exchanged enough material to make further inroads into their queen side.[/QUOTE]
Could you explain what you mean with a sample line, perhaps? Sorry, I don't want to be difficult, it's just that I can't make head or tail of what you're saying.:smile:

EDIT: Just to explain my own confusion, after 11...Qc7 I can't even see how we can play ...c4 if they don't play Nc4. The square is currently twice defended by White. If we play ...Nb6 so that ...c4 becomes possible (not ...Ne5 because they reply f4) then there's no knight ready to spring to d3. And our pawn on c4 is horribly, and permanently, weak.

Brian-E · 2015-03-24, 18:43

[QUOTE=davar55;398421][...]Do we take back with the R or Q?[...][/QUOTE]
I was rather anticipating that we would do the capturing with the light squared bishop, either on c4 (taking their knight) or e2 (taking their bishop).

If, though, they end up playing Be2xa6 we could recapture with either R or Q depending on circumstances, I guess.

WMHalsdorf · 2015-03-25, 17:48

I have found some errors in my database and have start to rebuild it with additional checking to make sure the games are legal. Currently this is all that I have for 11... Qc7, if you want to see other options I'll check to see what I have.

[ATTACH]12427[/ATTACH]

Brian-E · 2015-03-25, 18:36

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;398615]I have found some errors in my database and have start to rebuild it with additional checking to make sure the games are legal. Currently this is all that I have for 11... Qc7, if you want to see other options I'll check to see what I have.

[ATTACH]12427[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
Thanks, but I'm more keen to try to understand what your own thinking is - I didn't understand your previous post, as I said. I'm less interested in blindly following other people's games. As far as I can see, while 11...Qc7 is not a bad move, it doesn't threaten anything and isn't necessary right now.

WMHalsdorf · 2015-03-25, 22:24

We need a place for our knight that is currently on d7 so that we can move the bishop to d7

Brian-E · 2015-03-25, 22:33

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;398651]We need a place for our knight that is currently on d7 so that we can move the bishop to d7[/QUOTE]
So, you're advocating ...Qc7 to be followed by ...Nb6 and ...Bd7? (Please correct me if that's not what you mean.)

Do you think d7 is a good posting for the bishop?

2015-03-17, 06:12	#1
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 201₁₆ Posts	Move 11 White has a wide range of moves to choose from. 11. Nd2 Qc7 12. Nc4 (no point in giving away what we're going to do until now.) 11. Qc2 requires discussion 11. Rb1 requires discussion 11. h3 requires discussion 11, a4 requires discussion 11. Re1 requires discussion

2015-03-23, 19:02	#4
davar55 May 2004 New York City 4235₁₀ Posts	OK, 11 ..a5 12. c4 .. Ba6 makes some sense to me (rather than Bb7 as I earlier suggested). We do force exchange of the Bs without too much loss of time. Do we take back with the R or Q? Oops, we have to save the Q first, don't we. So 12. ..Q whereto, 13. whatthen .. us_then_what (Ba6 ?) then if they take the B do we take back with R or Q? Last fiddled with by davar55 on 2015-03-23 at 19:08 Reason: oops save the queen

2015-03-24, 18:38	#6
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;398435]11... Qc7 forces 12. Nc4 otherwise we get a chance to play c4 and place one of the knights on d3 or we can exchanged enough material to make further inroads into their queen side.[/QUOTE] Could you explain what you mean with a sample line, perhaps? Sorry, I don't want to be difficult, it's just that I can't make head or tail of what you're saying.:smile: EDIT: Just to explain my own confusion, after 11...Qc7 I can't even see how we can play ...c4 if they don't play Nc4. The square is currently twice defended by White. If we play ...Nb6 so that ...c4 becomes possible (not ...Ne5 because they reply f4) then there's no knight ready to spring to d3. And our pawn on c4 is horribly, and permanently, weak. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2015-03-24 at 18:53

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2015-03-17, 15:00	#2
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	Yes, lots of possible moves for White. I suppose the immediate problem which they must solve is how to develop the c1 bishop without allowing us to reply ...Qxb2. But there are many ways of doing that, including the first three possibilities in your list above.

2015-03-23, 11:03	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Now that they've played 11.Nd2 we need to tackle the issues and come up with our reply.:smile: They're almost certainly intending Nc4, I guess, c4 being a much better square for their knight than b3. Our attacked queen will be able to retreat to c7 as indicated by WMH in the first posting of this thread, but I'm not sure we need to play that until the queen is actually attacked. We can't reasonable prevent Nc4, I suggest. If we play 11...Ne5 we are merely allowing them to attack this knight with gain of time by playing f4, possibly after the preparatory move Kh1. I think our most pressing issue now is what to do with the c8 bishop. Both of you have at some point recently advocated putting it on b7. That isn't my preference. We may need to each put our point of view to see where we disagree. Here's mine. I want us to exchange this c8 bishop, and preferably for their knight after they've placed it on c4, or otherwise possibly for their bishop on e2. I think our bishop is an awkward piece and an exchange would solve this. And I want us soon to place our heavy pieces on the b file which is our main asset in the position, aiming at their weak point on b2. Our bishop would get in the way of that on b7. Hence I now advocate 11...a5 intending ...Ba6. What are your points of view, team-mates?

2015-03-23, 21:15	#5
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³·19 Posts	11... Qc7 forces 12. Nc4 otherwise we get a chance to play c4 and place one of the knights on d3 or we can exchanged enough material to make further inroads into their queen side.

2015-03-24, 18:43	#7
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=davar55;398421][...]Do we take back with the R or Q?[...][/QUOTE] I was rather anticipating that we would do the capturing with the light squared bishop, either on c4 (taking their knight) or e2 (taking their bishop). If, though, they end up playing Be2xa6 we could recapture with either R or Q depending on circumstances, I guess.

2015-03-25, 18:36	#9
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;398615]I have found some errors in my database and have start to rebuild it with additional checking to make sure the games are legal. Currently this is all that I have for 11... Qc7, if you want to see other options I'll check to see what I have. [ATTACH]12427[/ATTACH][/QUOTE] Thanks, but I'm more keen to try to understand what your own thinking is - I didn't understand your previous post, as I said. I'm less interested in blindly following other people's games. As far as I can see, while 11...Qc7 is not a bad move, it doesn't threaten anything and isn't necessary right now.

2015-03-25, 22:24	#10
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	We need a place for our knight that is currently on d7 so that we can move the bishop to d7

2015-03-25, 22:33	#11
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;398651]We need a place for our knight that is currently on d7 so that we can move the bishop to d7[/QUOTE] So, you're advocating ...Qc7 to be followed by ...Nb6 and ...Bd7? (Please correct me if that's not what you mean.) Do you think d7 is a good posting for the bishop?