Move 5 - Page 2

davar55 · 2015-02-06, 14:49

[QUOTE=Brian-E;394694]If they played 6.e4 I would certainly advocate taking it off with 6...Nxe4. It's a vitally important centre pawn for them, needed for support of their advanced d pawn as well as central control, and our loss of time in capturing it would be less important, I think. We have not moved our d pawn, so we don't have to watch out for Qa4+ winning the knight. I would go so far as to suggest that 6.e4 is a losing move for White.
However, they probably do want to play e4. Therefore the move 6.Nc3 preparing it seems a likely one to me.[/QUOTE]

OK, so much for 6. e4 .. (Nxe4).

If 6. Nc3 .., then is our move ..e6 ? Intending soon to fianchetto KB and K-castle ?

WMHalsdorf · 2015-02-06, 14:58

The most common reply is 6. Nc3 to which the most common reply for us would be 6... d6 or 6... g6.

Brian-E · 2015-02-06, 16:03

[QUOTE=davar55;394700]OK, so much for 6. e4 .. (Nxe4).

If 6. Nc3 .., then is our move ..e6 ? Intending soon to fianchetto KB and K-castle ?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;394702]The most common reply is 6. Nc3 to which the most common reply for us would be 6... d6 or 6... g6.[/QUOTE]
Yes. 6...e6 would not be a bad move, but I would criticise it as inconsistent with our last move. If we wanted to play ...e6 we should have done it at move 5 before White could respond e4. As things now stand, 6.Nc3 e6 7.e4 allows White to maintain their advanced d pawn.

I agree with the plan to fianchetto the KB and castle K-side. WMH's suggestions of either 6...d6 or 6...g6 prepare to do exactly that.

davar55 · 2015-02-06, 17:41

[QUOTE=Brian-E;394710]Yes. 6...e6 would not be a bad move, but I would criticise it as inconsistent with our last move. If we wanted to play ...e6 we should have done it at move 5 before White could respond e4. As things now stand, 6.Nc3 e6 7.e4 allows White to maintain their advanced d pawn.

I agree with the plan to fianchetto the KB and castle K-side. WMH's suggestions of either 6...d6 or 6...g6 prepare to do exactly that.[/QUOTE]

I won't discuss the issue of "predetermined outcome", except not to criticize a move for inconsistency with the past.
Live in the now !!

If 6. Nc3 ..e6 7. e4 occurs, we gobble the pawn with 7. ..d5. Yes ? Follow our successful gambit with aggression.
Unless there's some positional gamble I'm missing.

davar55 · 2015-02-06, 17:42

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;394702]The most common reply is 6. Nc3 to which the most common reply for us would be 6... d6 or 6... g6.[/QUOTE]

What are the stats ?

Brian-E · 2015-02-06, 17:58

[QUOTE=davar55;394718]I won't discuss the issue of "predetermined outcome", except not to criticize a move for inconsistency with the past.
Live in the now !!

If 6. Nc3 ..e6 7. e4 occurs, we gobble the pawn with 7. ..d5. Yes ? Follow our successful gambit with aggression.
Unless there's some positional gamble I'm missing.[/QUOTE]
After 6.Nc3 e6 7.e4 exd5 8.exd5 the open e file is more to White's advantage than Black's because of their control of the e6 square (where we might have wanted to block the file with our QB, something they can still do with their own QB).

davar55 · 2015-02-06, 18:48

[QUOTE=Brian-E;394720]After 6.Nc3 e6 7.e4 exd5 8.exd5 the open e file is more to White's advantage than Black's because of their control of the e6 square (where we might have wanted to block the file with our QB, something they can still do with their own QB).[/QUOTE]

You're putting position ahead of material when we can have both.

6. Nc3 .. e6 7. e4 .. exd5 8. exd5 ( .. now attack the advanced WP with BQB then BQ )

Brian-E · 2015-02-06, 20:57

The only game between Grandmasters with that line which I have been able to locate is [URL="http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1084725"]Sokolov-Kotronias, Novi 1990[/URL].

Your implication that Black can win White's d pawn is not supported by that game.

[QUOTE]1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cb5 a6 5. b6 Qb6 6. Nc3 e6 7. e4 ed5 8. ed5 d6 9. Nf3 Be7 10. Be2 Bg4 11. Nd2 Be2 12. Qe2 O-O 13. O-O Re8 14. Nc4 Qc7 15. Bf4 Nbd7 16. Qf3 Bf8 17. a4 Nb6 18. Ne3 Rab8 19. a5 Nbd7 20. Nc4 Rb4 21. Qd3 Nh5 22. Bd2 Qb7 23. f4 Nhf6 24. Rae1 Re1 25. Re1 Rb3 26. h3 h5 27. Bc1 Rb4 28. Bd2 Rb3 29. Re2 h4 30. Be1 Nh5 31. Qf3 Qb4 32. Nd2 Rb2 33. Re4 Qb7 34. Qh5 Nf6 35. Qh4 Ne4 36. Nde4 Be7 37. Qg4 Qc7 38. f5 f6 39. Ng3 Bd8 40. Nh5 Qf7 41. Ne4 Rb1 42. Kf2 c4 43. Bc3 Qa7 44. Ke2 Kf8 45. Nd6 Ba5 46. Ng7 Qg7 47. Qg7 Kg7 48. Ba5 Rb2 49. Ke3 Rg2 50. Nc4 Kf7 51. d6 Ke8 52. Kd4 Rh2 53. Kd5 Rh3 54. Ke6 Rh7 55. d7 1-0

[/QUOTE]

davar55 · 2015-02-07, 05:32

No my eighth move is as in:

1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cb5 a6 5. b6 Qb6 6. Nc3 e6 7. e4 ed5 8. ed5 ..(Bb7)

Attack that advanced pawn ! And again after. (Need to see a board here, maybe?)

WMHalsdorf · 2015-02-07, 14:25

Position after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cb5 a6 5. b6 Qb6 6. Nc3 e6 7. e4 ed5 8. ed5

[CENTER][ATTACH]12272[/ATTACH][/CENTER]

davar55 · 2015-02-07, 14:42

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;394803]Position after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cb5 a6 5. b6 Qb6 6. Nc3 e6 7. e4 ed5 8. ed5

[CENTER][ATTACH]12272[/ATTACH][/CENTER]
[/QUOTE]

OK, 8. ..(d6 or Nb7) ? Or another line?

2015-02-06, 16:03	#14
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=davar55;394700]OK, so much for 6. e4 .. (Nxe4). If 6. Nc3 .., then is our move ..e6 ? Intending soon to fianchetto KB and K-castle ?[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;394702]The most common reply is 6. Nc3 to which the most common reply for us would be 6... d6 or 6... g6.[/QUOTE] Yes. 6...e6 would not be a bad move, but I would criticise it as inconsistent with our last move. If we wanted to play ...e6 we should have done it at move 5 before White could respond e4. As things now stand, 6.Nc3 e6 7.e4 allows White to maintain their advanced d pawn. I agree with the plan to fianchetto the KB and castle K-side. WMH's suggestions of either 6...d6 or 6...g6 prepare to do exactly that. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2015-02-06 at 16:10 Reason: corrected move numbers

2015-02-06, 17:41	#15
davar55 May 2004 New York City 5×7×11² Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;394710]Yes. 6...e6 would not be a bad move, but I would criticise it as inconsistent with our last move. If we wanted to play ...e6 we should have done it at move 5 before White could respond e4. As things now stand, 6.Nc3 e6 7.e4 allows White to maintain their advanced d pawn. I agree with the plan to fianchetto the KB and castle K-side. WMH's suggestions of either 6...d6 or 6...g6 prepare to do exactly that.[/QUOTE] I won't discuss the issue of "predetermined outcome", except not to criticize a move for inconsistency with the past. Live in the now !! If 6. Nc3 ..e6 7. e4 occurs, we gobble the pawn with 7. ..d5. Yes ? Follow our successful gambit with aggression. Unless there's some positional gamble I'm missing. Last fiddled with by davar55 on 2015-02-06 at 17:47

2015-02-07, 14:25	#21
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³·19 Posts	Position after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cb5 a6 5. b6 Qb6 6. Nc3 e6 7. e4 ed5 8. ed5 [CENTER][ATTACH]12272[/ATTACH][/CENTER] Attached Thumbnails

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2015-02-06, 14:49	#12
davar55 May 2004 New York City 5×7×11² Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;394694]If they played 6.e4 I would certainly advocate taking it off with 6...Nxe4. It's a vitally important centre pawn for them, needed for support of their advanced d pawn as well as central control, and our loss of time in capturing it would be less important, I think. We have not moved our d pawn, so we don't have to watch out for Qa4+ winning the knight. I would go so far as to suggest that 6.e4 is a losing move for White. However, they probably do want to play e4. Therefore the move 6.Nc3 preparing it seems a likely one to me.[/QUOTE] OK, so much for 6. e4 .. (Nxe4). If 6. Nc3 .., then is our move ..e6 ? Intending soon to fianchetto KB and K-castle ?

2015-02-06, 14:58	#13
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 513₁₀ Posts	The most common reply is 6. Nc3 to which the most common reply for us would be 6... d6 or 6... g6.

2015-02-06, 17:42	#16
davar55 May 2004 New York City 5×7×11² Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;394702]The most common reply is 6. Nc3 to which the most common reply for us would be 6... d6 or 6... g6.[/QUOTE] What are the stats ?

2015-02-06, 17:58	#17
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=davar55;394718]I won't discuss the issue of "predetermined outcome", except not to criticize a move for inconsistency with the past. Live in the now !! If 6. Nc3 ..e6 7. e4 occurs, we gobble the pawn with 7. ..d5. Yes ? Follow our successful gambit with aggression. Unless there's some positional gamble I'm missing.[/QUOTE] After 6.Nc3 e6 7.e4 exd5 8.exd5 the open e file is more to White's advantage than Black's because of their control of the e6 square (where we might have wanted to block the file with our QB, something they can still do with their own QB).

2015-02-06, 18:48	#18
davar55 May 2004 New York City 5×7×11² Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;394720]After 6.Nc3 e6 7.e4 exd5 8.exd5 the open e file is more to White's advantage than Black's because of their control of the e6 square (where we might have wanted to block the file with our QB, something they can still do with their own QB).[/QUOTE] You're putting position ahead of material when we can have both. 6. Nc3 .. e6 7. e4 .. exd5 8. exd5 ( .. now attack the advanced WP with BQB then BQ )

2015-02-06, 20:57	#19
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	The only game between Grandmasters with that line which I have been able to locate is [URL="http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1084725"]Sokolov-Kotronias, Novi 1990[/URL]. Your implication that Black can win White's d pawn is not supported by that game. [QUOTE]1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cb5 a6 5. b6 Qb6 6. Nc3 e6 7. e4 ed5 8. ed5 d6 9. Nf3 Be7 10. Be2 Bg4 11. Nd2 Be2 12. Qe2 O-O 13. O-O Re8 14. Nc4 Qc7 15. Bf4 Nbd7 16. Qf3 Bf8 17. a4 Nb6 18. Ne3 Rab8 19. a5 Nbd7 20. Nc4 Rb4 21. Qd3 Nh5 22. Bd2 Qb7 23. f4 Nhf6 24. Rae1 Re1 25. Re1 Rb3 26. h3 h5 27. Bc1 Rb4 28. Bd2 Rb3 29. Re2 h4 30. Be1 Nh5 31. Qf3 Qb4 32. Nd2 Rb2 33. Re4 Qb7 34. Qh5 Nf6 35. Qh4 Ne4 36. Nde4 Be7 37. Qg4 Qc7 38. f5 f6 39. Ng3 Bd8 40. Nh5 Qf7 41. Ne4 Rb1 42. Kf2 c4 43. Bc3 Qa7 44. Ke2 Kf8 45. Nd6 Ba5 46. Ng7 Qg7 47. Qg7 Kg7 48. Ba5 Rb2 49. Ke3 Rg2 50. Nc4 Kf7 51. d6 Ke8 52. Kd4 Rh2 53. Kd5 Rh3 54. Ke6 Rh7 55. d7 1-0 [/QUOTE]

2015-02-07, 05:32	#20
davar55 May 2004 New York City 10213₈ Posts	No my eighth move is as in: 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cb5 a6 5. b6 Qb6 6. Nc3 e6 7. e4 ed5 8. ed5 ..(Bb7) Attack that advanced pawn ! And again after. (Need to see a board here, maybe?)

2015-02-07, 14:42	#22
davar55 May 2004 New York City 5·7·11² Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;394803]Position after 1. d4 Nf6 2. c4 c5 3. d5 b5 4. cb5 a6 5. b6 Qb6 6. Nc3 e6 7. e4 ed5 8. ed5 [CENTER][ATTACH]12272[/ATTACH][/CENTER] [/QUOTE] OK, 8. ..(d6 or Nb7) ? Or another line?