Move 1 - Page 3

Brian-E · 2015-01-10, 17:26

[QUOTE=davar55;392110]It's early, but do you favor 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 (...e6 or ...g6), the latter opening for the fianchetto immediately, the former
I'm not sure of what's in the near future ? Convince me why g6 --> fianchetto is better than e6 --> possibilities.[/QUOTE]
I'm actually more familiar with the defences following 2...e6 (with one exception: I sometimes play the Benko Gambit 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 b5! after which Black normally fianchettos the KB and exerts queenside pressure to compensate for the sacrificed pawn).

But I'm very happy to try 2...g6 if you two want to.

WMHalsdorf · 2015-01-10, 18:21

I believe that the length of time since the posting of our move would sugest they did not expect Nf6 and can't agree on how to proceed. While 2. c4 is a good move for white they may opt for one of the other moves I had suggested that they might play. In the event that they do play 2. c4 I would consider in order of preference c5, g6, e6. g6 is ahead of e6 since it presents more complications for white.

Brian-E · 2015-01-10, 21:14

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;392147]I believe that the length of time since the posting of our move would sugest they did not expect Nf6 and can't agree on how to proceed. While 2. c4 is a good move for white they may opt for one of the other moves I had suggested that they might play. In the event that they do play 2. c4 I would consider in order of preference c5, g6, e6. g6 is ahead of e6 since it presents more complications for white.[/QUOTE]
It's possible that they are debating, yes. Another possibility is that they are just waiting for the last members to post something. That was often the case during the last game: two members of the team were sometimes particularly slow to make any contribution due to their busy lives, and that is why the Geckos often took the full week to make our move.

So you like (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4)[U] 2...c5[/U]. After 3.d5 would you be intending a regular Benoni defence, or would you want to offer the Benko Gambit? Personally I have no experience of playing the former, but some experience of the latter.

WMHalsdorf · 2015-01-10, 23:42

[QUOTE=Brian-E;392159]It's possible that they are debating, yes. Another possibility is that they are just waiting for the last members to post something. That was often the case during the last game: two members of the team were sometimes particularly slow to make any contribution due to their busy lives, and that is why the Geckos often took the full week to make our move.

So you like (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4)[U] 2...c5[/U]. After 3.d5 would you be intending a regular Benoni defence, or would you want to offer the Benko Gambit? Personally I have no experience of playing the former, but some experience of the latter.[/QUOTE]

At this point I have no preference, it's always been how quick my oppent replied which doen't matter in this case.

Brian-E · 2015-01-11, 09:39

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;392165]At this point I have no preference, it's always been how quick my oppent replied which doen't matter in this case.[/QUOTE]
Okay. At the moment my own position on (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4) [U]2...c5[/U] is very positive provided that we intend the Benko Gambit after 3.d5 with [U]3...b5![/U]

I think Benoni continuations such as ...e6, ...exd5, ...d6, ...g6 (Modern Benoni) or ...e5 and ...d6 (Czech Benoni) really require us to have a good feel for these types of position, because they can lead to a very quick disadvantage if Black doesn't handle them appropriately. White has a significant space advantage with that sort of central structure. and Black's counterplay must be accurately carried out to offset it. Do either of you two have experience of playing the black side of Benoni defences? If so, I'd be happy to go along with it and tap your experience of how to handle those positions. If not, I think we need to avoid them.

The Benko Gambit, on the other hand, gives Black the lasting initiative at the cost of a pawn. I have a bit of experience playing the Black side myself, and the initiative which it leads to (pressure down the open files on the queenside and the long h8-a1 diagonal) almost plays itself anyway.

We do, of course, after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 need to be prepared to play the Black side of a type of English opening if White plays the conservative 3.Nf3. That leads to a more placid type of position. It would be fine by me.

WMHalsdorf · 2015-01-11, 16:19

[QUOTE=Brian-E;392180]Okay. At the moment my own position on (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4) [U]2...c5[/U] is very positive provided that we intend the Benko Gambit after 3.d5 with [U]3...b5![/U]

I think Benoni continuations such as ...e6, ...exd5, ...d6, ...g6 (Modern Benoni) or ...e5 and ...d6 (Czech Benoni) really require us to have a good feel for these types of position, because they can lead to a very quick disadvantage if Black doesn't handle them appropriately. White has a significant space advantage with that sort of central structure. and Black's counterplay must be accurately carried out to offset it. Do either of you two have experience of playing the black side of Benoni defences? If so, I'd be happy to go along with it and tap your experience of how to handle those positions. If not, I think we need to avoid them.

The Benko Gambit, on the other hand, gives Black the lasting initiative at the cost of a pawn. I have a bit of experience playing the Black side myself, and the initiative which it leads to (pressure down the open files on the queenside and the long h8-a1 diagonal) almost plays itself anyway.

We do, of course, after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 need to be prepared to play the Black side of a type of English opening if White plays the conservative 3.Nf3. That leads to a more placid type of position. It would be fine by me.[/QUOTE]

Since you have more experience with the Benko gambit I'll go along with that but I think they may go with 3. Nf3 to make things easier for themseleves.

davar55 · 2015-01-11, 18:59

So OK it's (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4) ..c5 or ..g6 or ..e6. yes? (Assuming 2.c4)

I like ..e6, but ..g6 looks even better on second glance, so cross out ..e6.

Now ..c5 is new to me. How would 3.dxc5 proceed?
I know it would be a bad play for them but we must be prepared.

If 3.d5, then ..b5 looks aggressive but probably right.
How would that likely proceed?
What is an alternate after 3.d5?

What if they don't play 2.c4?

WMHalsdorf · 2015-01-11, 20:18

[QUOTE=davar55;392209]So OK it's (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4) ..c5 or ..g6 or ..e6. yes? (Assuming 2.c4)

I like ..e6, but ..g6 looks even better on second glance, so cross out ..e6.

Now ..c5 is new to me. How would 3.dxc5 proceed?
I know it would be a bad play for them but we must be prepared.
[/QUOTE]
We should be so lucky if they reply to 2... c4 with 3. dxc5 there is no way they can hold onto the pawn (any attempt to do so results in material loss). That move also gives us the center and kingside.

[QUOTE=davar55;392209]So OK it's (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4) ..c5 or ..g6 or ..e6. yes? (Assuming 2.c4)

If 3.d5, then ..b5 looks aggressive but probably right.
[/QUOTE]
It's the most aggressive of available moves and quite playable.

[QUOTE=davar55;392209]So OK it's (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4) ..c5 or ..g6 or ..e6. yes? (Assuming 2.c4)

How would that likely proceed?
What is an alternate after 3.d5?

What if they don't play 2.c4?[/QUOTE]
Those moves are not aggressive compared to 2. c4 and Brian and I have mentioned it previously.

davar55 · 2015-01-11, 20:49

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;392218]We should be so lucky if they reply to 2... c5 with 3. dxc5 there is no way they can hold onto the pawn (any attempt to do so results in material loss). That move also gives us the center and kingside.

It's the most aggressive of available moves and quite playable.

Those moves are not aggressive compared to 2. c4 and Brian and I have mentioned it previously.[/QUOTE]

OK by me for either ..g6 or ..c5, and since you both want ..c5 and have 3.d5 b5 in mind,
I'm OK with 2. c4..c5,
though I don't see two moves ahead from there yet.

And when you mention an opening by name, since I don't know that many by name,
I have to learn something new each time. It takes time.

So what's our play if instead they move 2.c4..c5 3.Nf6 ?
g6? or a preparatory move? is Ne4 too soon?

Brian-E · 2015-01-12, 01:01

[QUOTE=davar55;392220]So what's our play if instead they move 2.c4..c5 3.Nf6 ?
g6? or a preparatory move? is Ne4 too soon?[/QUOTE]
After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 Black's most natural move, I would say, is 3...cxd4 which exchanges our c pawn for their more valuable d pawn (a centre pawn) and leaves the white piece which recaptures it (normally the knight) vulnerable to attack on d4. It's a standard variation of the symmetrical English opening which more usually starts 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4.

Your suggestion 3...g6 is playable too, I think. We are then inviting them to play d5 after all while also committing to a kingside fianchetto which is no bad idea.

Not 3...Ne4 though, I think. That transgresses opening principles by moving an already developed piece again, thereby losing valuable time, and for no good reason that I can see.

davar55 · 2015-01-12, 12:04

[QUOTE=Brian-E;392230]After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 Black's most natural move, I would say, is 3...cxd4 which exchanges our c pawn for their more valuable d pawn (a centre pawn) and leaves the white piece which recaptures it (normally the knight) vulnerable to attack on d4. It's a standard variation of the symmetrical English opening which more usually starts 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4.

Your suggestion 3...g6 is playable too, I think. We are then inviting them to play d5 after all while also committing to a kingside fianchetto which is no bad idea.

Not 3...Ne4 though, I think. That transgresses opening principles by moving an already developed piece again, thereby losing valuable time, and for no good reason that I can see.[/QUOTE]

OK. I know ..Ne4 is tactically unsound now, but it may come up soon.
So ..cxd4 or ..g6 seem playable.
Any other third moves reasonable after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 ?
Is ..b5 still possible? Now or soon?

2015-01-10, 21:14	#25
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;392147]I believe that the length of time since the posting of our move would sugest they did not expect Nf6 and can't agree on how to proceed. While 2. c4 is a good move for white they may opt for one of the other moves I had suggested that they might play. In the event that they do play 2. c4 I would consider in order of preference c5, g6, e6. g6 is ahead of e6 since it presents more complications for white.[/QUOTE] It's possible that they are debating, yes. Another possibility is that they are just waiting for the last members to post something. That was often the case during the last game: two members of the team were sometimes particularly slow to make any contribution due to their busy lives, and that is why the Geckos often took the full week to make our move. So you like (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4)[U] 2...c5[/U]. After 3.d5 would you be intending a regular Benoni defence, or would you want to offer the Benko Gambit? Personally I have no experience of playing the former, but some experience of the latter. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2015-01-10 at 21:28

2015-01-11, 20:49	#31
davar55 May 2004 New York City 5·7·11² Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;392218]We should be so lucky if they reply to 2... c5 with 3. dxc5 there is no way they can hold onto the pawn (any attempt to do so results in material loss). That move also gives us the center and kingside. It's the most aggressive of available moves and quite playable. Those moves are not aggressive compared to 2. c4 and Brian and I have mentioned it previously.[/QUOTE] OK by me for either ..g6 or ..c5, and since you both want ..c5 and have 3.d5 b5 in mind, I'm OK with 2. c4..c5, though I don't see two moves ahead from there yet. And when you mention an opening by name, since I don't know that many by name, I have to learn something new each time. It takes time. So what's our play if instead they move 2.c4..c5 3.Nf6 ? g6? or a preparatory move? is Ne4 too soon? Last fiddled with by davar55 on 2015-01-11 at 21:01

2015-01-12, 12:04	#33
davar55 May 2004 New York City 5·7·11² Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;392230]After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 Black's most natural move, I would say, is 3...cxd4 which exchanges our c pawn for their more valuable d pawn (a centre pawn) and leaves the white piece which recaptures it (normally the knight) vulnerable to attack on d4. It's a standard variation of the symmetrical English opening which more usually starts 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4. Your suggestion 3...g6 is playable too, I think. We are then inviting them to play d5 after all while also committing to a kingside fianchetto which is no bad idea. Not 3...Ne4 though, I think. That transgresses opening principles by moving an already developed piece again, thereby losing valuable time, and for no good reason that I can see.[/QUOTE] OK. I know ..Ne4 is tactically unsound now, but it may come up soon. So ..cxd4 or ..g6 seem playable. Any other third moves reasonable after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 ? Is ..b5 still possible? Now or soon? Last fiddled with by davar55 on 2015-01-12 at 12:07

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2015-01-10, 17:26	#23
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=davar55;392110]It's early, but do you favor 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 (...e6 or ...g6), the latter opening for the fianchetto immediately, the former I'm not sure of what's in the near future ? Convince me why g6 --> fianchetto is better than e6 --> possibilities.[/QUOTE] I'm actually more familiar with the defences following 2...e6 (with one exception: I sometimes play the Benko Gambit 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.d5 b5! after which Black normally fianchettos the KB and exerts queenside pressure to compensate for the sacrificed pawn). But I'm very happy to try 2...g6 if you two want to.

2015-01-10, 18:21	#24
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	I believe that the length of time since the posting of our move would sugest they did not expect Nf6 and can't agree on how to proceed. While 2. c4 is a good move for white they may opt for one of the other moves I had suggested that they might play. In the event that they do play 2. c4 I would consider in order of preference c5, g6, e6. g6 is ahead of e6 since it presents more complications for white.

2015-01-10, 23:42	#26
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³×19 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;392159]It's possible that they are debating, yes. Another possibility is that they are just waiting for the last members to post something. That was often the case during the last game: two members of the team were sometimes particularly slow to make any contribution due to their busy lives, and that is why the Geckos often took the full week to make our move. So you like (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4)[U] 2...c5[/U]. After 3.d5 would you be intending a regular Benoni defence, or would you want to offer the Benko Gambit? Personally I have no experience of playing the former, but some experience of the latter.[/QUOTE] At this point I have no preference, it's always been how quick my oppent replied which doen't matter in this case.

2015-01-11, 09:39	#27
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;392165]At this point I have no preference, it's always been how quick my oppent replied which doen't matter in this case.[/QUOTE] Okay. At the moment my own position on (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4) [U]2...c5[/U] is very positive provided that we intend the Benko Gambit after 3.d5 with [U]3...b5![/U] I think Benoni continuations such as ...e6, ...exd5, ...d6, ...g6 (Modern Benoni) or ...e5 and ...d6 (Czech Benoni) really require us to have a good feel for these types of position, because they can lead to a very quick disadvantage if Black doesn't handle them appropriately. White has a significant space advantage with that sort of central structure. and Black's counterplay must be accurately carried out to offset it. Do either of you two have experience of playing the black side of Benoni defences? If so, I'd be happy to go along with it and tap your experience of how to handle those positions. If not, I think we need to avoid them. The Benko Gambit, on the other hand, gives Black the lasting initiative at the cost of a pawn. I have a bit of experience playing the Black side myself, and the initiative which it leads to (pressure down the open files on the queenside and the long h8-a1 diagonal) almost plays itself anyway. We do, of course, after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 need to be prepared to play the Black side of a type of English opening if White plays the conservative 3.Nf3. That leads to a more placid type of position. It would be fine by me.

2015-01-11, 16:19	#28
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 3³·19 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;392180]Okay. At the moment my own position on (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4) [U]2...c5[/U] is very positive provided that we intend the Benko Gambit after 3.d5 with [U]3...b5![/U] I think Benoni continuations such as ...e6, ...exd5, ...d6, ...g6 (Modern Benoni) or ...e5 and ...d6 (Czech Benoni) really require us to have a good feel for these types of position, because they can lead to a very quick disadvantage if Black doesn't handle them appropriately. White has a significant space advantage with that sort of central structure. and Black's counterplay must be accurately carried out to offset it. Do either of you two have experience of playing the black side of Benoni defences? If so, I'd be happy to go along with it and tap your experience of how to handle those positions. If not, I think we need to avoid them. The Benko Gambit, on the other hand, gives Black the lasting initiative at the cost of a pawn. I have a bit of experience playing the Black side myself, and the initiative which it leads to (pressure down the open files on the queenside and the long h8-a1 diagonal) almost plays itself anyway. We do, of course, after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 need to be prepared to play the Black side of a type of English opening if White plays the conservative 3.Nf3. That leads to a more placid type of position. It would be fine by me.[/QUOTE] Since you have more experience with the Benko gambit I'll go along with that but I think they may go with 3. Nf3 to make things easier for themseleves.

2015-01-11, 18:59	#29
davar55 May 2004 New York City 1000010001011₂ Posts	So OK it's (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4) ..c5 or ..g6 or ..e6. yes? (Assuming 2.c4) I like ..e6, but ..g6 looks even better on second glance, so cross out ..e6. Now ..c5 is new to me. How would 3.dxc5 proceed? I know it would be a bad play for them but we must be prepared. If 3.d5, then ..b5 looks aggressive but probably right. How would that likely proceed? What is an alternate after 3.d5? What if they don't play 2.c4?

2015-01-11, 20:18	#30
WMHalsdorf Feb 2005 Bristol, CT 201₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=davar55;392209]So OK it's (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4) ..c5 or ..g6 or ..e6. yes? (Assuming 2.c4) I like ..e6, but ..g6 looks even better on second glance, so cross out ..e6. Now ..c5 is new to me. How would 3.dxc5 proceed? I know it would be a bad play for them but we must be prepared. [/QUOTE] We should be so lucky if they reply to 2... c4 with 3. dxc5 there is no way they can hold onto the pawn (any attempt to do so results in material loss). That move also gives us the center and kingside. [QUOTE=davar55;392209]So OK it's (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4) ..c5 or ..g6 or ..e6. yes? (Assuming 2.c4) If 3.d5, then ..b5 looks aggressive but probably right. [/QUOTE] It's the most aggressive of available moves and quite playable. [QUOTE=davar55;392209]So OK it's (1.d4 Nf6 2.c4) ..c5 or ..g6 or ..e6. yes? (Assuming 2.c4) How would that likely proceed? What is an alternate after 3.d5? What if they don't play 2.c4?[/QUOTE] Those moves are not aggressive compared to 2. c4 and Brian and I have mentioned it previously.

2015-01-12, 01:01	#32
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=davar55;392220]So what's our play if instead they move 2.c4..c5 3.Nf6 ? g6? or a preparatory move? is Ne4 too soon?[/QUOTE] After 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 c5 3.Nf3 Black's most natural move, I would say, is 3...cxd4 which exchanges our c pawn for their more valuable d pawn (a centre pawn) and leaves the white piece which recaptures it (normally the knight) vulnerable to attack on d4. It's a standard variation of the symmetrical English opening which more usually starts 1.c4 c5 2.Nf3 Nf6 3.d4. Your suggestion 3...g6 is playable too, I think. We are then inviting them to play d5 after all while also committing to a kingside fianchetto which is no bad idea. Not 3...Ne4 though, I think. That transgresses opening principles by moving an already developed piece again, thereby losing valuable time, and for no good reason that I can see.