Move 1 - Page 2

davar55 · 2015-01-08, 23:52

[QUOTE=Brian-E;391981]We'll certainly have a crucial decision to make at move 2 if they play 2.c4.
There are two very different types of game to go for:
(1) Play 2...e6 and go for Nimzo-Indian/Queen's Indian/Queen's Gambit style openings.
(2) Play 2...g6 (or, more unusually 2...c5) and go for King's fianchetto openings - King's Indian, Gruenfeld, Benoni.
Do you two have a clear preference between these two styles?
[/QUOTE]
I can't speak from experience here. But e6 opens up Q and QB, while g6 opens up QB for fianchetto.
The first (e6) seems to offer more options for play, yes? The second is more committal.

Brian-E · 2015-01-09, 09:47

[QUOTE=davar55;392005]I can't speak from experience here. But e6 opens up Q and QB, while g6 opens up QB for fianchetto.
The first (e6) seems to offer more options for play, yes? The second is more committal.[/QUOTE]
I'd say they're both commital. 2...g6 does indeed commit to fianchettoing the KB, but equally 2...e6 cuts out all the vast swathes of theory of those King's Indian style defences which in practice probably account for around half of all games where White opened 1.d4/c4/Nf3. Hence a big decision next move.

But...

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;391984]1. d4 Nf6
Most likly replies.
2. c4
2. e3
2. Nc3
2. Nf3
2. Bg5[/QUOTE]
Quite right! We do need to see their move first.:smile:

davar55 · 2015-01-09, 10:40

OK, but please explain in general terms the KIng's Indian Defense style, for example
does one expect to fianchetto the bishop, but later? How far is its book, or better,
its strategic goals?

I too expect 2. c4 unless they want to go off-book, which we would probably be
able to find a weakness in, as c4 is apparently the most analyzed and accepted
next move.

If white had opened c4 (or Nf3) would we even have responded Nf3 (which would have
allowed white to 2.d4 or what else) creating an alternate sequence to same board
situation, which tends to obviate the efficacy of one move or another?

Is it of value to back analyze over moves we might have made but didn't?

Brian-E · 2015-01-09, 15:36

[QUOTE=davar55;392050]OK, but please explain in general terms the KIng's Indian Defense style, for example
does one expect to fianchetto the bishop, but later? How far is its book, or better,
its strategic goals?[/QUOTE]
There are many, many different openings where White opens with the QP and Black fianchettos the KB. Perhaps you could characterise most of them with the vague description that Black allows White to construct a pawn centre with a space advantage in the expectation of getting a counter-attack. But both sides still have a great deal of influence over the type of game which ensues. Even if we restrict ourselves to just the King's Indian Defence with the move ...d6 (when there are plenty of other defences which Black can adopt with the kingside fianchetto), White can still choose amongst radically different approaches leading to different types of game.

That's not very helpful, I know. If you have the time and inclination, you could go to [URL]http://www.chessgames.com/[/URL] and type E60 in the field for ECO code to look at general King's Indian Defence games.

[QUOTE]I too expect 2. c4 unless they want to go off-book, which we would probably be
able to find a weakness in, as c4 is apparently the most analyzed and accepted
next move.[/QUOTE]There are other good moves for White who can delay c4 or omit it entirely.

[QUOTE]If white had opened c4 (or Nf3) would we even have responded Nf3 (which would have
allowed white to 2.d4 or what else) creating an alternate sequence to same board
situation, which tends to obviate the efficacy of one move or another?

Is it of value to back analyze over moves we might have made but didn't?[/QUOTE]Yes, there are many transpositional possibilities - different move orders leading to the same position.
I think we will have quite enough on our hands looking at the position in the game as we have reached it.

davar55 · 2015-01-09, 18:05

I looked at that chess site. Once I realized it could be used as a chess engine,
I walked out - it looked too good. So what's the decision on using that site?
I am interested in improving my game, but not at the expense of propriety.
Then again, ours is not the only game in town for the next year. You see my
problem...

Brian-E · 2015-01-09, 18:29

We are allowed to refer to databases of games (and openings and endgames) which is what chessgames.com entails. What we must not do is, during the game, put our current position into a chess playing program to let it analyse it. You should have no qualms about researching chess openings on the internet.

davar55 · 2015-01-09, 21:01

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;391984]1. d4 Nf6
Most likly replies.
2. c4
2. e3
2. Nc3
2. Nf3
2. Bg5[/QUOTE]

So what's a good response for each of these?
Let's see if we disagree on any. You first.

davar55 · 2015-01-09, 21:05

[QUOTE=Brian-E;392086]We are allowed to refer to databases of games (and openings and endgames) which is what chessgames.com entails. What we must not do is, during the game, put our current position into a chess playing program to let it analyse it. You should have no qualms about researching chess openings on the internet.[/QUOTE]

Very good. Thanks. That makes this more interesting.

davar55 · 2015-01-09, 21:25

[QUOTE=Brian-E;392047]I'd say they're both commital. 2...g6 does indeed commit to fianchettoing the KB, but equally 2...e6 cuts out all the vast swathes of theory of those King's Indian style defences which in practice probably account for around half of all games where White opened 1.d4/c4/Nf3. Hence a big decision next move.
[/QUOTE]

You refer to those King's Indian [B]style[/B] defenses. What specifically does the style refer to,
in specifically this case ? A bringing out of a certain pawn or knight at a certain occurrence?
Or what?

Brian-E · 2015-01-09, 22:01

[QUOTE=davar55;392100]You refer to those King's Indian [B]style[/B] defenses. What specifically does the style refer to,
in specifically this case ? A bringing out of a certain pawn or knight at a certain occurrence?
Or what?[/QUOTE]
By "King's Indian style" I mean an opening where White plays d4 and c4 and Black fianchettos the KB. It's not a standard expression as far as I know, but I was using it to include at least the King's Indian, Gruenfeld, Benoni, and the Benko Gambit.

davar55 · 2015-01-09, 22:40

[QUOTE=Brian-E;392104]By "King's Indian style" I mean an opening where White plays d4 and c4 and Black fianchettos the KB. It's not a standard expression as far as I know, but I was using it to include at least the King's Indian, Gruenfeld, Benoni, and the Benko Gambit.[/QUOTE]

It's early, but do you favor 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 (...e6 or ...g6), the latter opening for the fianchetto immediately, the former
I'm not sure of what's in the near future ? Convince me why g6 --> fianchetto is better than e6 --> possibilities.

2015-01-09, 10:40	#14
davar55 May 2004 New York City 108B₁₆ Posts	OK, but please explain in general terms the KIng's Indian Defense style, for example does one expect to fianchetto the bishop, but later? How far is its book, or better, its strategic goals? I too expect 2. c4 unless they want to go off-book, which we would probably be able to find a weakness in, as c4 is apparently the most analyzed and accepted next move. If white had opened c4 (or Nf3) would we even have responded Nf3 (which would have allowed white to 2.d4 or what else) creating an alternate sequence to same board situation, which tends to obviate the efficacy of one move or another? Is it of value to back analyze over moves we might have made but didn't? Last fiddled with by davar55 on 2015-01-09 at 10:53

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2015-01-08, 23:52	#12
davar55 May 2004 New York City 5·7·11² Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;391981]We'll certainly have a crucial decision to make at move 2 if they play 2.c4. There are two very different types of game to go for: (1) Play 2...e6 and go for Nimzo-Indian/Queen's Indian/Queen's Gambit style openings. (2) Play 2...g6 (or, more unusually 2...c5) and go for King's fianchetto openings - King's Indian, Gruenfeld, Benoni. Do you two have a clear preference between these two styles? [/QUOTE] I can't speak from experience here. But e6 opens up Q and QB, while g6 opens up QB for fianchetto. The first (e6) seems to offer more options for play, yes? The second is more committal.

2015-01-09, 09:47	#13
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=davar55;392005]I can't speak from experience here. But e6 opens up Q and QB, while g6 opens up QB for fianchetto. The first (e6) seems to offer more options for play, yes? The second is more committal.[/QUOTE] I'd say they're both commital. 2...g6 does indeed commit to fianchettoing the KB, but equally 2...e6 cuts out all the vast swathes of theory of those King's Indian style defences which in practice probably account for around half of all games where White opened 1.d4/c4/Nf3. Hence a big decision next move. But... [QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;391984]1. d4 Nf6 Most likly replies. 2. c4 2. e3 2. Nc3 2. Nf3 2. Bg5[/QUOTE] Quite right! We do need to see their move first.:smile:

2015-01-09, 15:36	#15
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=davar55;392050]OK, but please explain in general terms the KIng's Indian Defense style, for example does one expect to fianchetto the bishop, but later? How far is its book, or better, its strategic goals?[/QUOTE] There are many, many different openings where White opens with the QP and Black fianchettos the KB. Perhaps you could characterise most of them with the vague description that Black allows White to construct a pawn centre with a space advantage in the expectation of getting a counter-attack. But both sides still have a great deal of influence over the type of game which ensues. Even if we restrict ourselves to just the King's Indian Defence with the move ...d6 (when there are plenty of other defences which Black can adopt with the kingside fianchetto), White can still choose amongst radically different approaches leading to different types of game. That's not very helpful, I know. If you have the time and inclination, you could go to [URL]http://www.chessgames.com/[/URL] and type E60 in the field for ECO code to look at general King's Indian Defence games. [QUOTE]I too expect 2. c4 unless they want to go off-book, which we would probably be able to find a weakness in, as c4 is apparently the most analyzed and accepted next move.[/QUOTE]There are other good moves for White who can delay c4 or omit it entirely. [QUOTE]If white had opened c4 (or Nf3) would we even have responded Nf3 (which would have allowed white to 2.d4 or what else) creating an alternate sequence to same board situation, which tends to obviate the efficacy of one move or another? Is it of value to back analyze over moves we might have made but didn't?[/QUOTE]Yes, there are many transpositional possibilities - different move orders leading to the same position. I think we will have quite enough on our hands looking at the position in the game as we have reached it.

2015-01-09, 18:05	#16
davar55 May 2004 New York City 5·7·11² Posts	I looked at that chess site. Once I realized it could be used as a chess engine, I walked out - it looked too good. So what's the decision on using that site? I am interested in improving my game, but not at the expense of propriety. Then again, ours is not the only game in town for the next year. You see my problem...

2015-01-09, 18:29	#17
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	We are allowed to refer to databases of games (and openings and endgames) which is what chessgames.com entails. What we must not do is, during the game, put our current position into a chess playing program to let it analyse it. You should have no qualms about researching chess openings on the internet.

2015-01-09, 21:01	#18
davar55 May 2004 New York City 5×7×11² Posts	[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;391984]1. d4 Nf6 Most likly replies. 2. c4 2. e3 2. Nc3 2. Nf3 2. Bg5[/QUOTE] So what's a good response for each of these? Let's see if we disagree on any. You first.

2015-01-09, 21:05	#19
davar55 May 2004 New York City 10213₈ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;392086]We are allowed to refer to databases of games (and openings and endgames) which is what chessgames.com entails. What we must not do is, during the game, put our current position into a chess playing program to let it analyse it. You should have no qualms about researching chess openings on the internet.[/QUOTE] Very good. Thanks. That makes this more interesting.

2015-01-09, 21:25	#20
davar55 May 2004 New York City 108B₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;392047]I'd say they're both commital. 2...g6 does indeed commit to fianchettoing the KB, but equally 2...e6 cuts out all the vast swathes of theory of those King's Indian style defences which in practice probably account for around half of all games where White opened 1.d4/c4/Nf3. Hence a big decision next move. [/QUOTE] You refer to those King's Indian [B]style[/B] defenses. What specifically does the style refer to, in specifically this case ? A bringing out of a certain pawn or knight at a certain occurrence? Or what?

2015-01-09, 22:01	#21
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=davar55;392100]You refer to those King's Indian [B]style[/B] defenses. What specifically does the style refer to, in specifically this case ? A bringing out of a certain pawn or knight at a certain occurrence? Or what?[/QUOTE] By "King's Indian style" I mean an opening where White plays d4 and c4 and Black fianchettos the KB. It's not a standard expression as far as I know, but I was using it to include at least the King's Indian, Gruenfeld, Benoni, and the Benko Gambit.

2015-01-09, 22:40	#22
davar55 May 2004 New York City 5×7×11² Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;392104]By "King's Indian style" I mean an opening where White plays d4 and c4 and Black fianchettos the KB. It's not a standard expression as far as I know, but I was using it to include at least the King's Indian, Gruenfeld, Benoni, and the Benko Gambit.[/QUOTE] It's early, but do you favor 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 (...e6 or ...g6), the latter opening for the fianchetto immediately, the former I'm not sure of what's in the near future ? Convince me why g6 --> fianchetto is better than e6 --> possibilities.