Move 49 - Page 2

richs · 2014-10-13, 22:53

Another line where we lose the h pawn:

49. ... Kf6
50. Bc2 Bd2
51. Ke2 Bc3
52. Rh7 Ke5
53. Rxh6

Perhaps we should reconsider my line presented in Move 48 with 49. ... Kf8?

Brian-E · 2014-10-13, 23:02

[QUOTE=richs;385126]Another line where we lose the h pawn:

49. ... Kf6
50. Bc2 Bd2
51. Ke2 Bc3
52. Rh7 Ke5
53. Rxh6

Perhaps we should reconsider my line presented in Move 48 with 49. ... Kf8?[/QUOTE]
52...Kg5 protects the h pawn in that line (and if h4+ Kh5). We would not have that luxury with our king stuck on our back rank.

richs · 2014-10-13, 23:50

Alternatively:

52. ... Kg5
53. Kf3 Bd2
54. Rf7+ Kf6
55. Rh7 Bg5

and we still have life....

I agree with 49. ... Kf6

henryzz · 2014-10-14, 00:38

Sorry been full of a cold and not had much time. Hopefully I should get to it tomorrow.

henryzz · 2014-10-14, 17:09

[QUOTE=Brian-E;384872]The line 49...Kf6 50.Rc7 Nxb3 51.Rc3 Nd4+ 52.Ke4 Ne2 53.Rc6+ Kg7 54.Kd3 wins the piece back for them and leaves an ending where they have the exchange and a pawn extra and we no longer have the drawing potential of opposite coloured bishops. Almost no chance for us to save the game here, I think. Can anyone improve on that line for us? If not, perhaps 49...Kd6 is necessary.

Interesting that they didn't force this while they could by playing 49.Rc6.

EDIT: 54...Nf4+! at the end of that line, but it's still hopeless I think: 55.gxf4 Bxf4 56.h3 (threat Rc5), Bg5 (intending ...Bd8) 57.Rd6 Bf4 58.Rd7+ Kg6 59.Ra7 picking up our a pawn.[/QUOTE]

52...Bb2 improves that line I think.

henryzz · 2014-10-14, 17:15

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;384874]At the moment I prefer Richs' line:

[quote]48. ... Nc5
49. Ra7+ Kf8
50. Bc2 Bd2
51. Ke2 Bc3
52. Rc7 Bd4[/quote]

:smile:[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Brian-E;384875]Well, two problems with 49...Kf8:

They can keep our king confined to the back rank with their rook while they overwhelm us with their other pieces.

Or they can play 50.Rc7 with a line similar to the one in post #2 above.[/QUOTE]
This line seems to play pretty similarly to Kf6.

henryzz · 2014-10-14, 17:24

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;384906]Oops! I forgot about defending the a-pawn.

As you said:

[quote]49...Kf6 50.Rc7 Nxb3 51.Rc3 Nd4+ 52.Ke4 Ne2 53.Rc6+ Kg7 54.Kd3 Nf4+ 55.gxf4 Bxf4 56.h3[/quote]

but 56. ... Bg3 then onto d1 :smile:[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Brian-E;384908]Yes, this seems to work! I thought 57.Ke2 refuted, but then 57...Bh4 intending ...Bd8 and I can't see an immediate way for them to round up the a pawn.

However, they can of course march their king to b5 while keeping our king confined to our second rank so we cannot harass their h pawn, then give back the exchange on a5 and win the resulting pawns ending easily. So it is still a simple win for them.

Still, I definitely think 49...Kf6 is the right move now, 49...Kd6 being absolutely hopeless. They have a win with 50.Rc7, I think, but it's up to them to find it and have the confidence to play it. They didn't play 49.Rc6 which would have amounted to the same thing, so we can hope. :-)[/QUOTE]
What about 52...Bb2 ?
Is that too advantageous for us?

Brian-E · 2014-10-14, 21:05

[QUOTE=Brian-E;384872]The line 49...Kf6 50.Rc7 Nxb3 51.Rc3 Nd4+ 52.Ke4 Ne2 53.Rc6+ Kg7 54.Kd3 wins the piece back for them and leaves an ending where they have the exchange and a pawn extra and we no longer have the drawing potential of opposite coloured bishops. Almost no chance for us to save the game here, I think. Can anyone improve on that line for us? If not, perhaps 49...Kd6 is necessary.

Interesting that they didn't force this while they could by playing 49.Rc6.

EDIT: 54...Nf4+! at the end of that line, but it's still hopeless I think: 55.gxf4 Bxf4 56.h3 (threat Rc5), Bg5 (intending ...Bd8) 57.Rd6 Bf4 58.Rd7+ Kg6 59.Ra7 picking up our a pawn.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=henryzz;385178]52...Bb2 improves that line I think.[/QUOTE]
I don't think so. 52...Bb2 53.Kxd4 leaves White with a won king and pawn ending.

EDIT for clarity: for example, 53.Kxd4 Kf5 54.h3! h5 55.Kc4 Bxc3 56.Kxc3 Ke4 57.g4 hxg4 58.hxg4 and the g pawn will decoy the black king sufficiently to queen the a pawn.

Brian-E · 2014-10-14, 21:11

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;384874]At the moment I prefer Richs' line:
[QUOTE]48. ... Nc5
49. Ra7+ Kf8
50. Bc2 Bd2
51. Ke2 Bc3
52. Rc7 Bd4
[/QUOTE]

:smile:[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=henryzz;385180]This line seems to play pretty similarly to Kf6.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps, but isn't the fact that after 49...Kf6 our king is not confined to the back rank important?
For example, if 49...Kf8 50.Bc2 Bd2 51.Ke2 Bc3 we must constantly look out for their move Rh7 at a point when we cannot reply ...Bg7, winning our h pawn.

I think 49...Kf6 loses, as does everything else, but it is a more active move than 49...Kf8 and so ought to give them more chance to go wrong.

henryzz · 2014-10-14, 22:49

[QUOTE=Brian-E;385193]Perhaps, but isn't the fact that after 49...Kf6 our king is not confined to the back rank important?
For example, if 49...Kf8 50.Bc2 Bd2 51.Ke2 Bc3 we must constantly look out for their move Rh7 at a point when we cannot reply ...Bg7, winning our h pawn.

I think 49...Kf6 loses, as does everything else, but it is a more active move than 49...Kf8 and so ought to give them more chance to go wrong.[/QUOTE]
Apart from the king being confined to the back row.

henryzz · 2014-10-14, 23:10

[QUOTE=Brian-E;385192]I don't think so. 52...Bb2 53.Kxd4 leaves White with a won king and pawn ending.

EDIT for clarity: for example, 53.Kxd4 Kf5 54.h3! h5 55.Kc4 Bxc3 56.Kxc3 Ke4 57.g4 hxg4 58.hxg4 and the g pawn will decoy the black king sufficiently to queen the a pawn.[/QUOTE]
I realized that it was possible to get it such that we were just a pawn down. I hoped that we could do that in a way that caused a draw. It seems not.

2014-10-14, 21:05	#19
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;384872]The line 49...Kf6 50.Rc7 Nxb3 51.Rc3 Nd4+ 52.Ke4 Ne2 53.Rc6+ Kg7 54.Kd3 wins the piece back for them and leaves an ending where they have the exchange and a pawn extra and we no longer have the drawing potential of opposite coloured bishops. Almost no chance for us to save the game here, I think. Can anyone improve on that line for us? If not, perhaps 49...Kd6 is necessary. Interesting that they didn't force this while they could by playing 49.Rc6. EDIT: 54...Nf4+! at the end of that line, but it's still hopeless I think: 55.gxf4 Bxf4 56.h3 (threat Rc5), Bg5 (intending ...Bd8) 57.Rd6 Bf4 58.Rd7+ Kg6 59.Ra7 picking up our a pawn.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=henryzz;385178]52...Bb2 improves that line I think.[/QUOTE] I don't think so. 52...Bb2 53.Kxd4 leaves White with a won king and pawn ending. EDIT for clarity: for example, 53.Kxd4 Kf5 54.h3! h5 55.Kc4 Bxc3 56.Kxc3 Ke4 57.g4 hxg4 58.hxg4 and the g pawn will decoy the black king sufficiently to queen the a pawn. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-10-14 at 21:41

2014-10-14, 21:11	#20
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;384874]At the moment I prefer Richs' line: [QUOTE]48. ... Nc5 49. Ra7+ Kf8 50. Bc2 Bd2 51. Ke2 Bc3 52. Rc7 Bd4 [/QUOTE] :smile:[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=henryzz;385180]This line seems to play pretty similarly to Kf6.[/QUOTE] Perhaps, but isn't the fact that after 49...Kf6 our king is not confined to the back rank important? For example, if 49...Kf8 50.Bc2 Bd2 51.Ke2 Bc3 we must constantly look out for their move Rh7 at a point when we cannot reply ...Bg7, winning our h pawn. I think 49...Kf6 loses, as does everything else, but it is a more active move than 49...Kf8 and so ought to give them more chance to go wrong. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-10-14 at 21:48 Reason: Removed a line which doesn't work. My mistake.

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2014-10-13, 22:53	#12
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 11010110110₂ Posts	Another line where we lose the h pawn: 49. ... Kf6 50. Bc2 Bd2 51. Ke2 Bc3 52. Rh7 Ke5 53. Rxh6 Perhaps we should reconsider my line presented in Move 48 with 49. ... Kf8?

2014-10-13, 23:02	#13
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=richs;385126]Another line where we lose the h pawn: 49. ... Kf6 50. Bc2 Bd2 51. Ke2 Bc3 52. Rh7 Ke5 53. Rxh6 Perhaps we should reconsider my line presented in Move 48 with 49. ... Kf8?[/QUOTE] 52...Kg5 protects the h pawn in that line (and if h4+ Kh5). We would not have that luxury with our king stuck on our back rank.

2014-10-13, 23:50	#14
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	Alternatively: 52. ... Kg5 53. Kf3 Bd2 54. Rf7+ Kf6 55. Rh7 Bg5 and we still have life.... I agree with 49. ... Kf6

2014-10-14, 00:38	#15
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	Sorry been full of a cold and not had much time. Hopefully I should get to it tomorrow.

2014-10-14, 17:09	#16
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 1011111111101₂ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;384872]The line 49...Kf6 50.Rc7 Nxb3 51.Rc3 Nd4+ 52.Ke4 Ne2 53.Rc6+ Kg7 54.Kd3 wins the piece back for them and leaves an ending where they have the exchange and a pawn extra and we no longer have the drawing potential of opposite coloured bishops. Almost no chance for us to save the game here, I think. Can anyone improve on that line for us? If not, perhaps 49...Kd6 is necessary. Interesting that they didn't force this while they could by playing 49.Rc6. EDIT: 54...Nf4+! at the end of that line, but it's still hopeless I think: 55.gxf4 Bxf4 56.h3 (threat Rc5), Bg5 (intending ...Bd8) 57.Rd6 Bf4 58.Rd7+ Kg6 59.Ra7 picking up our a pawn.[/QUOTE] 52...Bb2 improves that line I think.

2014-10-14, 17:15	#17
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;384874]At the moment I prefer Richs' line: [quote]48. ... Nc5 49. Ra7+ Kf8 50. Bc2 Bd2 51. Ke2 Bc3 52. Rc7 Bd4[/quote] :smile:[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Brian-E;384875]Well, two problems with 49...Kf8: They can keep our king confined to the back rank with their rook while they overwhelm us with their other pieces. Or they can play 50.Rc7 with a line similar to the one in post #2 above.[/QUOTE] This line seems to play pretty similarly to Kf6.

2014-10-14, 17:24	#18
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 13775₈ Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;384906]Oops! I forgot about defending the a-pawn. As you said: [quote]49...Kf6 50.Rc7 Nxb3 51.Rc3 Nd4+ 52.Ke4 Ne2 53.Rc6+ Kg7 54.Kd3 Nf4+ 55.gxf4 Bxf4 56.h3[/quote] but 56. ... Bg3 then onto d1 :smile:[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Brian-E;384908]Yes, this seems to work! I thought 57.Ke2 refuted, but then 57...Bh4 intending ...Bd8 and I can't see an immediate way for them to round up the a pawn. However, they can of course march their king to b5 while keeping our king confined to our second rank so we cannot harass their h pawn, then give back the exchange on a5 and win the resulting pawns ending easily. So it is still a simple win for them. Still, I definitely think 49...Kf6 is the right move now, 49...Kd6 being absolutely hopeless. They have a win with 50.Rc7, I think, but it's up to them to find it and have the confidence to play it. They didn't play 49.Rc6 which would have amounted to the same thing, so we can hope. :-)[/QUOTE] What about 52...Bb2 ? Is that too advantageous for us?

2014-10-14, 22:49	#21
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;385193]Perhaps, but isn't the fact that after 49...Kf6 our king is not confined to the back rank important? For example, if 49...Kf8 50.Bc2 Bd2 51.Ke2 Bc3 we must constantly look out for their move Rh7 at a point when we cannot reply ...Bg7, winning our h pawn. I think 49...Kf6 loses, as does everything else, but it is a more active move than 49...Kf8 and so ought to give them more chance to go wrong.[/QUOTE] Apart from the king being confined to the back row.

2014-10-14, 23:10	#22
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;385192]I don't think so. 52...Bb2 53.Kxd4 leaves White with a won king and pawn ending. EDIT for clarity: for example, 53.Kxd4 Kf5 54.h3! h5 55.Kc4 Bxc3 56.Kxc3 Ke4 57.g4 hxg4 58.hxg4 and the g pawn will decoy the black king sufficiently to queen the a pawn.[/QUOTE] I realized that it was possible to get it such that we were just a pawn down. I hoped that we could do that in a way that caused a draw. It seems not.