Move 43

Brian-E · 2014-08-31, 22:13

43...Ne4 would "get on with it". It threatens the knight fork ...Nf2+, keeps the d6 square under control for the moment, and intends ...Nf6 should there king try to go to h5.

One nice little trap after which I only notice now is if they play 44.Kh4? we reply 44...Bg5+ which seems to win back material and probably draw. On 45.Kg4 or 45.Kh3 we win their bishop with 45...Nf2+, so they will be forced to play either 45.Rxg5 or 45.Kh5 Nf6+ returning the exchange while we still keep both our pawns.

After 43...Ne4 44.Kg4 I actually missed the move 44...Nf2+ last time, though I see it now. This does not win a piece, unlike above, because of 45.Kf3 Nxd1 46.Ke2. This line is clearly lost for us I think because we no longer have the opposite coloured bishops. I guess the rest of you saw this last time and rejected it. 44...Nf6+ here prevents the king going to h5, though we could also delay that move and only play it after any Kh5 move by them.

Does anyone think any move other than 43...Ne4 is worth considering?

henryzz · 2014-09-01, 15:20

What would we actually plan to do after 43...Ne4 44.Kg4 ? Nf2+ only works if we do the exchange I think.
43.Ne6 doesn't look too good for them trying to move their king forward as we can trap their rook with Kf7

Brian-E · 2014-09-01, 16:25

[QUOTE=henryzz;381890]What would we actually plan to do after 43...Ne4 44.Kg4 ? Nf2+ only works if we do the exchange I think.
43.Ne6 doesn't look too good for them trying to move their king forward as we can trap their rook with Kf7[/QUOTE]
The general plan which I had in mind with 43...Ne4 was to play, or to be in a position to play, ...Nf6. This counters any plan they may have of marching their king to h5 and then playing Rxh6, giving up their rook for our bishop and h pawn, as discussed last move. As well as being able to jump to f6 from that square, our knight on e4 is also flexibly placed to attack or blockade the advancing kingside pawns, to harrass their king when it tries to advance, or to jump back and attack the a pawn again, depending on circumstances.

43...Ne6 might be worth considering too, yes.

Brian-E · 2014-09-03, 10:44

Paul and Rich, are you around too? And David, do you have a current move preference?

We need to get a discussion going if we want time to have it. Don't let's get caught out by the time, or misled by the fact that this thread was actually started more than a day after we received their move!

I currently advocate 43...Ne4. But what about everyone else?

paulunderwood · 2014-09-03, 11:02

Sorry for being quiet. Yes, Ne4 looks good, threatening a fork of White's King and Bishop. Plus some potential traps for White's King or Rook. :smile:

henryzz · 2014-09-03, 14:08

I am ok with Ne4. Ne6 probably wins for me currently though.

Brian-E · 2014-09-03, 17:19

Would it be possible to write down some more justification for the move 43...Ne6 David? Your arguments could sway me and others.

My main problem with that move is that I think they can eventually get their king to h5 and play Rxh6 if we don't give our knight access to f6. I understand that 43...Ne6 44.Kg4 Kf7 is no good for them, but if instead (43...Ne6) 44.Bb3 Nc5 45.Bc2 Ne6 46.Kg4 we can no longer prevent Kh5 and Rxh6 as far as I can see. Can you improve on that for us?

EDIT: I should let you reply, but I see it myself now. 46...Kf7 holds here too. (Then not 47.Kh5 Ng7+.) I guess this is what you have in mind?

henryzz · 2014-09-03, 20:50

[QUOTE=Brian-E;382040]Would it be possible to write down some more justification for the move 43...Ne6 David? Your arguments could sway me and others.

My main problem with that move is that I think they can eventually get their king to h5 and play Rxh6 if we don't give our knight access to f6. I understand that 43...Ne6 44.Kg4 Kf7 is no good for them, but if instead (43...Ne6) 44.Bb3 Nc5 45.Bc2 Ne6 46.Kg4 we can no longer prevent Kh5 and Rxh6 as far as I can see. Can you improve on that for us?

EDIT: I should let you reply, but I see it myself now. 46...Kf7 holds here too. (Then not 47.Kh5 Ng7+.) I guess this is what you have in mind?[/QUOTE]
Yes definitely Kf7 if they do K(gh)4.
h6 is safe in this line as far as I can see.

Brian-E · 2014-09-04, 07:58

Yes, I agree that both 43...Ne4 and 43...Ne6 defend against their threat to sacrifice on h6.

What are their relative pros and cons?

I prefer 43...Ne4 at the moment because:
(1) The knight's defensive third rank position lets us control more squares if it is on f6 rather than e6. On f6 the knight is attacking light squares to complement our bishop's control of the dark ones.
(2) We give them a chance to blunder if they reply 43...Ne4 44.Kh4? Bg5+. I know we should not expect them to do that, but in a quite probably lost position I think we are justified in giving them as much chance as possible to go wrong.

What are the advantages of 43...Ne6 ?

richs · 2014-09-05, 03:41

Sorry for the last minute check-in; work was hell this week. I spent some time tonight looking at the board and I like Ne4. David, if you have some thoughts re Ne6, please let us know.

henryzz · 2014-09-06, 08:26

Sorry I have been out of the house all day for the last two days. I quite like how ne6 ties their took to one square with their bishop protecting it.
I do like your reasons for ne4 as well.

2014-08-31, 22:13	#1
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Move 43 43...Ne4 would "get on with it". It threatens the knight fork ...Nf2+, keeps the d6 square under control for the moment, and intends ...Nf6 should there king try to go to h5. One nice little trap after which I only notice now is if they play 44.Kh4? we reply 44...Bg5+ which seems to win back material and probably draw. On 45.Kg4 or 45.Kh3 we win their bishop with 45...Nf2+, so they will be forced to play either 45.Rxg5 or 45.Kh5 Nf6+ returning the exchange while we still keep both our pawns. After 43...Ne4 44.Kg4 I actually missed the move 44...Nf2+ last time, though I see it now. This does not win a piece, unlike above, because of 45.Kf3 Nxd1 46.Ke2. This line is clearly lost for us I think because we no longer have the opposite coloured bishops. I guess the rest of you saw this last time and rejected it. 44...Nf6+ here prevents the king going to h5, though we could also delay that move and only play it after any Kh5 move by them. Does anyone think any move other than 43...Ne4 is worth considering?

2014-09-03, 17:19	#7
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	Would it be possible to write down some more justification for the move 43...Ne6 David? Your arguments could sway me and others. My main problem with that move is that I think they can eventually get their king to h5 and play Rxh6 if we don't give our knight access to f6. I understand that 43...Ne6 44.Kg4 Kf7 is no good for them, but if instead (43...Ne6) 44.Bb3 Nc5 45.Bc2 Ne6 46.Kg4 we can no longer prevent Kh5 and Rxh6 as far as I can see. Can you improve on that for us? EDIT: I should let you reply, but I see it myself now. 46...Kf7 holds here too. (Then not 47.Kh5 Ng7+.) I guess this is what you have in mind? Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-09-03 at 17:25

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2014-09-01, 15:20	#2
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	What would we actually plan to do after 43...Ne4 44.Kg4 ? Nf2+ only works if we do the exchange I think. 43.Ne6 doesn't look too good for them trying to move their king forward as we can trap their rook with Kf7

2014-09-01, 16:25	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;381890]What would we actually plan to do after 43...Ne4 44.Kg4 ? Nf2+ only works if we do the exchange I think. 43.Ne6 doesn't look too good for them trying to move their king forward as we can trap their rook with Kf7[/QUOTE] The general plan which I had in mind with 43...Ne4 was to play, or to be in a position to play, ...Nf6. This counters any plan they may have of marching their king to h5 and then playing Rxh6, giving up their rook for our bishop and h pawn, as discussed last move. As well as being able to jump to f6 from that square, our knight on e4 is also flexibly placed to attack or blockade the advancing kingside pawns, to harrass their king when it tries to advance, or to jump back and attack the a pawn again, depending on circumstances. 43...Ne6 might be worth considering too, yes.

2014-09-03, 10:44	#4
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Paul and Rich, are you around too? And David, do you have a current move preference? We need to get a discussion going if we want time to have it. Don't let's get caught out by the time, or misled by the fact that this thread was actually started more than a day after we received their move! I currently advocate 43...Ne4. But what about everyone else?

2014-09-03, 11:02	#5
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	Sorry for being quiet. Yes, Ne4 looks good, threatening a fork of White's King and Bishop. Plus some potential traps for White's King or Rook. :smile:

2014-09-03, 14:08	#6
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 17FD₁₆ Posts	I am ok with Ne4. Ne6 probably wins for me currently though.

2014-09-03, 20:50	#8
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 17FD₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;382040]Would it be possible to write down some more justification for the move 43...Ne6 David? Your arguments could sway me and others. My main problem with that move is that I think they can eventually get their king to h5 and play Rxh6 if we don't give our knight access to f6. I understand that 43...Ne6 44.Kg4 Kf7 is no good for them, but if instead (43...Ne6) 44.Bb3 Nc5 45.Bc2 Ne6 46.Kg4 we can no longer prevent Kh5 and Rxh6 as far as I can see. Can you improve on that for us? EDIT: I should let you reply, but I see it myself now. 46...Kf7 holds here too. (Then not 47.Kh5 Ng7+.) I guess this is what you have in mind?[/QUOTE] Yes definitely Kf7 if they do K(gh)4. h6 is safe in this line as far as I can see.

2014-09-04, 07:58	#9
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Yes, I agree that both 43...Ne4 and 43...Ne6 defend against their threat to sacrifice on h6. What are their relative pros and cons? I prefer 43...Ne4 at the moment because: (1) The knight's defensive third rank position lets us control more squares if it is on f6 rather than e6. On f6 the knight is attacking light squares to complement our bishop's control of the dark ones. (2) We give them a chance to blunder if they reply 43...Ne4 44.Kh4? Bg5+. I know we should not expect them to do that, but in a quite probably lost position I think we are justified in giving them as much chance as possible to go wrong. What are the advantages of 43...Ne6 ?

2014-09-05, 03:41	#10
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	Sorry for the last minute check-in; work was hell this week. I spent some time tonight looking at the board and I like Ne4. David, if you have some thoughts re Ne6, please let us know.

2014-09-06, 08:26	#11
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	Sorry I have been out of the house all day for the last two days. I quite like how ne6 ties their took to one square with their bishop protecting it. I do like your reasons for ne4 as well.