Move 30

paulunderwood · 2014-06-05, 08:48

I think Nxc5 is good for us as we can mop up white's a-pawn, while white takes our rook. :smile:

Brian-E · 2014-06-05, 09:08

In agreement with Paul. (I was typing away what follows below, posted the new thread, then saw too late that he had already started a thread.)

Of the two ways for us to give up the exchange, my initial impression now is that only 30...Nxc5 gives us any chances, to follow up with 31.Rxb8 Kc7 32.Rxc8+ Kxd6 with a position where we have prospects of picking up their a pawn, and our knight on e7 defends things rather well against the white rook.

The alternative 30...Nxd2 seems to fail to 31.Rxb8 Kc7 (White was threatening Bb7) 32.Rxc8+ Kxd6 33.Nb7+ Ke5 34.Rc5+ Kf6 when they have preserved both their queenside pawns, we will lose our a pawn, and our knight on d2 is stranded and vulnerable to being picked up by their king. This looks terrible to me.

As usual I will have missed all sorts though. What does everyone else think?

Brian-E · 2014-06-05, 09:21

The line I posted following 30...Nxd2 is rubbish now I reconsider. And, considering that Rich posted the proper continuation after that move when we were looking at move 29, I have no excuse at all!

As Rich wrote last time, we can play 30...Nxd2 31.Rxb8 Bxc3 and he then quite rightly looks at 32.Nxe6+. Not, as I thought a moment ago, 32.Bb7 because of 32...Bd4+ 33.Kg2 Bxc5 34.Nxc8 Kc7.

Maybe both 30...Nxd2 and 30...Nxc5 have their merits, then.

paulunderwood · 2014-06-05, 09:28

Another possible variation that needs a look at is:

30...Nxc4
31.Rxb8 Be5

Brian-E · 2014-06-05, 11:13

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;375109]Another possible variation that needs a look at is:

30...Nxc4
31.Rxb8 Be5[/QUOTE]
Maybe, but I don't think we have any chance after 30...Nxc5 31.Rxb8 Be5 32.Nf7+ Kc7 33.Rxc8+ followed by 34.Nxe5 with an extra piece.

paulunderwood · 2014-06-05, 14:49

Yes, that would be bad for us.

Nxd2 followed by us with Bxc3 nicely protects our a-pawn :smile:

Brian-E · 2014-06-06, 09:08

Yep, 30...Nxd2 leads to protection of our a pawn (and removes their passed c pawn), though it also safeguards their a pawn because it sends our knight offside and preserves their c5 knight. This c5 knight, if allowed to remain on the board, will also shortly eat our e6 pawn. 30...Nxd2 does remove their dangerous advantage of the pair of bishops.

Really, I still can't decide between 30...Nxc5 and 30...Nxd2. Both seem to have their pros and cons.

Obviously hoping to hear what Rich and David think too!

richs · 2014-06-07, 02:52

I'll look further this weekend. (Their quick move surprised me!) But as of now I'm thinking I'll stick with Nxd2 as I analyzed last move.

henryzz · 2014-06-07, 12:35

I have come up with another line for Nxc5
30...Nxc5 31.Rxb8 Nxa4 32.c4 Bd4+ 33.Kf1 g5 34.Nxc8 Nxc8 35.Bxa5+ Kd7 36.Rb7+ Kd6 37.Bd8 Ke5
I imagine there are a few improvements for both sides in there.

I think I would prefer Nxd2 at this point but it is close.

Brian-E · 2014-06-08, 09:00

[QUOTE=henryzz;375284]I have come up with another line for Nxc5
30...Nxc5 31.Rxb8 Nxa4 32.c4 Bd4+ 33.Kf1 g5 34.Nxc8 Nxc8 35.Bxa5+ Kd7 36.Rb7+ Kd6 37.Bd8 Ke5
I imagine there are a few improvements for both sides in there.

I think I would prefer Nxd2 at this point but it is close.[/QUOTE]
Yes, your line is full of tactical subtleties. We are prevented from playing ...Kc7 after they have taken our rook: while the bishop check puts the bishop out of reach of their fork Ne8+ it unfortunately put it within reach of another fork Nb5+. For a short time just now I actually thought that (30...Nxc5 31.Rxb8 Nxa4 32.c4 Bd4+ 33.Kf1) 33...Kc7 would win us back the exchange, but no, they play 34.Rxc8+ Nxc8 35.Nb5+ and win easily.

I think I'm also inclining towards 30...Nxd2. Rich's line (he posted it last move): 30...Nxd2 31.Rxb8 Bxc3 32.Nxe6+ Kd7 seems to lead to a position where our piece activity and solid few remaining pawns make it hard for them to win. Given this rather safe looking line, the complications following 30...Nxc5 seem unnecessary to me.

richs · 2014-06-09, 02:44

Here's my line for Nxc5:

30. ... Nxc5
31. Rxb8 Nxa4
32. Kf1 g5
33. c4 Bc3
34. Be3 Bb4
35. Nxc8 Nxc8
36. h4 Bc5
37. Bxc5 Nxc5
38. Rb5 Nd7
39. hxg5 hxg5
40. Rxa5 Nd6

I got carried away.... But we do end up with a very technical end-game pitting our two knights vs. a rook and a bishop. Advantage to white....

On the whole, the two moves are even to me.

2014-06-05, 08:48	#1
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	Move 30 I think Nxc5 is good for us as we can mop up white's a-pawn, while white takes our rook. :smile:

2014-06-05, 09:28	#4
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	Another possible variation that needs a look at is: 30...Nxc4 31.Rxb8 Be5 Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-06-05 at 09:28

2014-06-06, 09:08	#7
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Yep, 30...Nxd2 leads to protection of our a pawn (and removes their passed c pawn), though it also safeguards their a pawn because it sends our knight offside and preserves their c5 knight. This c5 knight, if allowed to remain on the board, will also shortly eat our e6 pawn. 30...Nxd2 does remove their dangerous advantage of the pair of bishops. Really, I still can't decide between 30...Nxc5 and 30...Nxd2. Both seem to have their pros and cons. Obviously hoping to hear what Rich and David think too! Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-06-06 at 09:18

2014-06-08, 09:00	#10
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;375284]I have come up with another line for Nxc5 30...Nxc5 31.Rxb8 Nxa4 32.c4 Bd4+ 33.Kf1 g5 34.Nxc8 Nxc8 35.Bxa5+ Kd7 36.Rb7+ Kd6 37.Bd8 Ke5 I imagine there are a few improvements for both sides in there. I think I would prefer Nxd2 at this point but it is close.[/QUOTE] Yes, your line is full of tactical subtleties. We are prevented from playing ...Kc7 after they have taken our rook: while the bishop check puts the bishop out of reach of their fork Ne8+ it unfortunately put it within reach of another fork Nb5+. For a short time just now I actually thought that (30...Nxc5 31.Rxb8 Nxa4 32.c4 Bd4+ 33.Kf1) 33...Kc7 would win us back the exchange, but no, they play 34.Rxc8+ Nxc8 35.Nb5+ and win easily. I think I'm also inclining towards 30...Nxd2. Rich's line (he posted it last move): 30...Nxd2 31.Rxb8 Bxc3 32.Nxe6+ Kd7 seems to lead to a position where our piece activity and solid few remaining pawns make it hard for them to win. Given this rather safe looking line, the complications following 30...Nxc5 seem unnecessary to me. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-06-08 at 09:25

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2014-06-05, 09:08	#2
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	In agreement with Paul. (I was typing away what follows below, posted the new thread, then saw too late that he had already started a thread.) Of the two ways for us to give up the exchange, my initial impression now is that only 30...Nxc5 gives us any chances, to follow up with 31.Rxb8 Kc7 32.Rxc8+ Kxd6 with a position where we have prospects of picking up their a pawn, and our knight on e7 defends things rather well against the white rook. The alternative 30...Nxd2 seems to fail to 31.Rxb8 Kc7 (White was threatening Bb7) 32.Rxc8+ Kxd6 33.Nb7+ Ke5 34.Rc5+ Kf6 when they have preserved both their queenside pawns, we will lose our a pawn, and our knight on d2 is stranded and vulnerable to being picked up by their king. This looks terrible to me. As usual I will have missed all sorts though. What does everyone else think?

2014-06-05, 09:21	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	The line I posted following 30...Nxd2 is rubbish now I reconsider. And, considering that Rich posted the proper continuation after that move when we were looking at move 29, I have no excuse at all! As Rich wrote last time, we can play 30...Nxd2 31.Rxb8 Bxc3 and he then quite rightly looks at 32.Nxe6+. Not, as I thought a moment ago, 32.Bb7 because of 32...Bd4+ 33.Kg2 Bxc5 34.Nxc8 Kc7. Maybe both 30...Nxd2 and 30...Nxc5 have their merits, then.

2014-06-05, 11:13	#5
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;375109]Another possible variation that needs a look at is: 30...Nxc4 31.Rxb8 Be5[/QUOTE] Maybe, but I don't think we have any chance after 30...Nxc5 31.Rxb8 Be5 32.Nf7+ Kc7 33.Rxc8+ followed by 34.Nxe5 with an extra piece.

2014-06-05, 14:49	#6
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	Yes, that would be bad for us. Nxd2 followed by us with Bxc3 nicely protects our a-pawn :smile:

2014-06-07, 02:52	#8
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	I'll look further this weekend. (Their quick move surprised me!) But as of now I'm thinking I'll stick with Nxd2 as I analyzed last move.

2014-06-07, 12:35	#9
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	I have come up with another line for Nxc5 30...Nxc5 31.Rxb8 Nxa4 32.c4 Bd4+ 33.Kf1 g5 34.Nxc8 Nxc8 35.Bxa5+ Kd7 36.Rb7+ Kd6 37.Bd8 Ke5 I imagine there are a few improvements for both sides in there. I think I would prefer Nxd2 at this point but it is close.

2014-06-09, 02:44	#11
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 6B6₁₆ Posts	Here's my line for Nxc5: 30. ... Nxc5 31. Rxb8 Nxa4 32. Kf1 g5 33. c4 Bc3 34. Be3 Bb4 35. Nxc8 Nxc8 36. h4 Bc5 37. Bxc5 Nxc5 38. Rb5 Nd7 39. hxg5 hxg5 40. Rxa5 Nd6 I got carried away.... But we do end up with a very technical end-game pitting our two knights vs. a rook and a bishop. Advantage to white.... On the whole, the two moves are even to me.