White 26

[WMHalsdorf]

There is no harm inviting them to make a mistake with Re1 since if tjey do something other than the exchange we gain much more than a pawn.
If they respond immediately with Nxd we play Nxc4.

[cheesehead]

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;371687]I'm wondering if Re1 would allow Black to make a mistake in trying to save their current queen side or would they try the sacking the Knigth.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;371699]There is no harm inviting them to make a mistake with Re1 since if tjey do something other than the exchange we gain much more than a pawn.
If they respond immediately with Nxd we play Nxc4.[/QUOTE]I've lost track. After [B]26 Re1[/B], what is the Black mistake of which you speak?

- -

Later:

Oh, do you mean this: [B]26 Re1 bxc3 27 bxc3 Rb2[/B], where we chase the rook with [B]28 Nxc4[/B] and if 28 ... Rc2 29 Be4 ?

What if [B]28 ... Ra2[/B] instead? Did we ever analyze that, and I just can't find it now?

We could try to trap it with 29 Be4 and 30 Bb1 (If 30 ... Ra1 31 Bxg6+), but 29 Be4 Nxd4 30 cxd4 (not Bb1 Nf3+) Bxd4+ 31 Be3
Here 31 ... Bxe3+ and either 32 Rxe3 Ra1+ or 32 Nxe3 Rb2 lets the rook escape.
OTOH 31 ... Bc3 and if 32 Rf1 (or Rb1/c1/d1) Ra1 lets Black trade rooks. Best for us here might be 33 Rxa1 Bxa1 [speculation] 34 Bxh6 Bc3 35 Nb3 Bd7 36 Nbxa5 Bxa4. We're a whole knight ahead.

[WMHalsdorf]

Re1 creates a hidden pin and most of the moves that prevent that from turning into an actual pin are bad for Black for example any King move.
Remember our style of play in this game has been in the form of misdirection which has kept them off balance.

[cheesehead]

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;371736]Re1 creates a hidden pin and most of the moves that prevent that from turning into an actual pin are bad for Black for example any King move.[/QUOTE]Oh, I see.

[quote]Remember our style of play in this game has been in the form of misdirection which has kept them off balance.[/quote]Some of our moves have been able to be part of more than one threat, but that's just a byproduct of having a sound position, not misdirection. Also, some of our moves were, in retrospect, mistakes from which we've been able to recover.

I'd rather play Nxc4 first, and let our decision on subsequent moves be based on Black's response. Perhaps my style could be termed "let them worry about our followup" rather than "let's misdirect them".

(Besides, what is "misdirectional" about putting our rook on[I] the (e-)file aimed at their king[/I] instead of on the completely open (f-)file next to it?)

[LaurV]

I advocated Re1 in the past, and I am still thinking that it should have been a better move we could play two turns ago. Right now, I think that playing 26 Re1 before 26 Nxc4 is, well... not a mistake, but it is not the best we can do. As I said in post 22 above, let's put it into moves:

[B]26 Re1 Nxd4[/B] - they will not forgive us a second time here, for sure. 27 Nxc4 Nb3 28 Nxb3 bxc3. Then what? (they are threatening both our figures, and taking the horse with the rook not only take the rook, but doubling on our c3 pawn/bishop too; letting them take the bishop is even worse).

If 27 cxd4 (is cxb4 valid here?) Bxd4 28 Ne4 Ba6 and black has a much better position.

Honestly, I like [B]26 Nxc4[/B] first, better for us. Here they can't take the pawn directly and they have to exchange b-c first, it seems very clear for me. Than we get a much better position after Re1 (later) - already shown by cheeasehead before.

I maintain my vote with Nxc4 - 5 points. I may give few points (3? 4? as opposite to 0 points I already gave) to Re1, but this is better played later.

[WMHalsdorf]

The attack on the e file with Re1 would normally be the follow up to a good response to Nxc4. With the transposition of the 2 moves there are more bad moves for Black to make some of which are not disclosed unless you do some deep analysis.

[cheesehead]

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;371763]The attack on the e file with Re1 would normally be the follow up to a good response to Nxc4. With the transposition of the 2 moves there are more bad moves for Black to make some of which are not disclosed unless you do some deep analysis.[/QUOTE]No matter how many "bad moves" are possible for Black to play, not one of them counts if Black could instead play a "good move". We must presume that Black will choose the best move, not some inferior alternative.

Black has what has seemed to be a good response to [B]26 Re1[/B] in [B]26 ... Nxd4[/B] ... [U]but maybe LaurV has uncovered a way to turn it into another "bad move"!![/U]

[QUOTE=LaurV;371762][B]26 Re1 Nxd4[/B] < snip > (is cxb4 valid here?)[/QUOTE][I]Wowie-zowie! It's a real zinger![/I]

[B]26 Re1 Nxd4 [/B][B]27 cx[U]b[/U]4 axb4[/B] results in an even-material position, but we can start pushing our a-pawn right away. Black can block it, but that just leaves us further opportunities to exercise our positional advantages. E.g., 28 a5 Nec6 29 a6 Na7 30 Bf4 Rb5 31 Nd6+.

[B]26 Re1 Nxd4 27 cxb4[/B] (not cxd4) -- [I]Does Black have any good response here?[/I]
If [B]27 ... axb4 28 Nxc4[/B] intending 29 a5 etc. What's Black's best here?
If [B]27 ... Ndc6 28 bxa5[/B]
If [B]28 ... c3 29 Bxc3 Bxc3 30 bxc3 Nxa5[/B] does this save Black?

[I]I'm too excited by the 27 cxb4! answer to 26 ... Nxd4 to be thorough right now.

Please, you two look at it.

Can anyone find a good Black response to [/I][I][B]26 Re1 Nxd4 27 cxb4[/B]?[/I]

[LaurV]

[QUOTE=cheesehead;371771]
[I]Wowie-zowie![/I]
[/QUOTE]
I was at job, without the possibility to look deep into the move, so it mostly was from the memory. I analyzed cx[U]b[/U]4 a bit last night, but not very deep, and I can't look into it now, I am a bit tired after work and few hours of running through few supermarkets. My daughter started the school (after "summer holiday, which is April here) and we had to go buy some school-related stuff, including a special Songkran shirt (a normal summer shirt, with flowers painted on it), they will have a water ceremony, and all students must come dressed in such stuff. What the hack, last week during Songkran, all supermarkets were full of such merchandise with price tags equivalent of 1 to max 4 american dollars. You can buy one at EVERY corner of the street. Cheap stuff which all thai people buy on Sonkgran days, "to get wet" in it, to have good luck next year (Songkran is Thai new year). So, every year before Songran, all shops are full of such cheap flowery shirts. They usually "disappear" after, the un-sold one are hidden till next year, because nobody buy them anymore. I knew this from the other years (been here for a while), but I never realized [U]how fast[/U] they disappear. Guess what: my daughter does not own one. We went to 5 different supermarkets/malls after I come from work today (Sonkgran was last week!), we spent about 30 minutes in each of them, we could not find ANY freaking flowery shirt! She will have to borrow one from a colleague, alternative which SWMBO does not like at all...

But well.. We just arrived home some time ago, ate something, had a shower, I will go to bed, no mood for chess. Maybe tomorrow night....

[WMHalsdorf]

26. Nxc4 Nxd4 27. Re1
26. Re1 Nxd4 27. Nxc4
This is a move order preference position. I am comfortable with any order we choose to play, I just want to make sure that we all are aware.

[LaurV]

Not quite...
Both these versions are "fair" for us, but not the best, because of 27...Nb3

1. If we move Re1 first, we can not avoid this "fair" path.
2. If we move Nxc4 first, then when 26...Nxd4, we do 27 [B]cxd4[/B]! (not Re1) and they play with a figure less, against a single pawn (not two pawns, and if Bxd4, then 28 Be3). So, this is a "better" path for us, because in this case taking d4 first is bad for black. Therefore they are forced to clear the b-c pawns first. Only AFTER the b-c exchange, they can play Nxd4, and this is very important for us now. Look again to the former analysis. After the exchange, we can not take the horse, because the rook fork. So, we have to play Re1 after the exchange. This path is very clear and plain for me, and that is the "good" path (as opposite to "fair"). Of course, I didn't look into "cxb4" version which popped up yesterday, but I will do that tonight.

Until then, the "good" path is [B]26 Nxc4 bxc3 27 bxc3 Nxd4 28 Re1[/B], now why is this so important, because now they can not play Nb3, and need to retreat the horse, as discussed before, and as cheesehead said before (if black insists to 28...Nb3, then 29 Rb1 and the horse is luggage)

[cheesehead]

Consolidating our analysis of [B]26 Nxc4[/B] and [B]26 Re1[/B]:

[B]* 26 Nxc4[/B] has the big advantage that it clears the way for a future Bd3 response to Bxd4+, which solves _part_ of our d4-fork problem.

If [B]26 ... bxc3 27 bxc3
27 ... Nxd4[/B] would show that we haven't yet completely solved our d4-fork problem because we can't afford 28 cxd4 here. We'll have to get our rook or king off its d4-diagonal to finish solving that problem.
[B]28 Re1[/B] (not 28 Rc1 Ne2+) _does_ threaten 29 cxd4, thus finishing our solution to the d4-fork problem. Now the N/d4 _must_ retreat or be captured.
(If 28 ... Nb3 29 Rb1 pins the N/b3 against the R/c8.)
(If 28 ... Nc2 29 Rc1 and the knight has nowhere safe to go.)
The only two safe retreats are
[B]28 ... Nc6[/B] or [B]28 ... Nf5[/B], whereupon (either case) we capture Black's e-pawn with [B]
29 Nxe6[/B] and we're a pawn up.

If [B]26 ... Nxd4 [/B]then[B]
27 cxd4 Bxd4+ 28 Be3[/B] we're up a knight for a pawn.

If [B]26 ... e5
[/B][B]27 d5 [/B] (not 27 dxe5 mundane pawn swap favoring Black) forces [B]27 ... Na7[/B] or [B]27 ... Nd8[/B]. Now
[B]28 Nd6+[/B] forces either
[B]28 ... Kd8[/B] (if 27 ... Na7) or
[B]28 ... Kf8[/B] where 29 Rf1+ is uncomfortable for Black. or we could make different threats with
[B]28 Re1[/B] (instead of the 28 Nxa5 pawn grab) which aims at both the e-pawn and, behind it, Black's N/e7 and K/e8, threatening 29 Nxe5 and 30 Nxg6. If 29 ... Bxe5 30 Rxe5 threatening 31 d6 if Black doesn't move his king. (And his a5-pawn is still undefended.)

If [B]26 ... Nd5 [/B]Black prevents a 28 d5 reply to a possible 27 ... e5.
But [B]27 Ne3[/B] makes it retreat: [B]27 ... Nde7[/B]. (27 ... Nxe3 loses a piece to 28 Bxc6+ and Bxe3) Now we have the same position as before move 26 except that the c4-pawn is gone. If 28 Nc4 is our best move, then we're headed for a draw by repetition, so maybe 28 Re1 instead? :-)
If [B]27 Bxd5 exd5 28 Nd6+[/B] we remain a pawn up, at the cost of our beautiful fianchettoed bishop.
(27 Re1 would deter 27 ... e5, but then 27 ... Nxd4 28 cxd4 Bxd4+ 29 Be3 Nxe3 30 Nxe3 Bxc5 would leave us a pawn down, with a pinned knight.)

If [B]26 ... h5 [/B] relieves the B/g7 of guard duty, but allows us to play Bg5, or play Bf4 without fear of g5. <== needs analysis

If [B]26 ... g5 27 Be4[/B] looks like a good place for this B. <== needs analysis

- - -

[B]* 26 Re1[/B] [B]Nxd4
[/B]
[B]27 Nxc4[/B] is our main-line response.
If [B]27 ... Nb3 28 Nxb3 bxc3[/B]
If [B]29 bxc3 Rxb3 30 Nxa5 Ra3 31 Re4[/B] we're a pawn up, but the action will be lively.

The [B]27 cx[U]b[/U]4 [/B]non-intuitive capture (not 27 cxd4 Bxd4 28 Ne4 Ba6 and black has a much better position.) doesn't seem to be in our favor:
[B]27 ... Nb3 28 Nxb3 cxb3
[/B]If [B]29 Nc4 [/B](not 29 Bc3 Bxc3 30 bxc3 Ba6 31 Be4 Nd5) [B]axb4[/B] and we're a pawn down.
If [B]29 bxa5 Bxb2 30 Nc4[/B] we might have trouble with Black's passed b-pawn if we allow Black's B/c8 to get on the b1-a7 diagonal.

- - -

Verdict: 26 Re1 doesn't look as sound as 26 Nxc4.

26 Re1 doesn't have the big advantage of 26 Nxc4: clearing the way for a future Bd3 response to Bxd4+. But of course Re1 does have a proper role as a follow-up to Nxc4.

Vote:

26 Nxc4 -- 5
26 Re1 -- 2