Move 25 - Page 3

Brian-E · 2014-04-15, 17:49

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;371257]How about lines starting with 25...Bg5?[/QUOTE]
Do you have any particular aim with this move?

Clearly we're in trouble as we're losing the c pawn. I think we need to look for compensation for the coming pawn deficit which means we need activity, and exchanging dark squared bishops after they play Nxc4 gives up our pressure down the h8-a1 diagonal for good, it seems to me.

My suggestion now: 25...Bg7 removing their tactical tricks from attacking this bishop, maintaining the threat against d4 and general pressure on the diagonal, and incidentally defending our h pawn. With the bishop out of the way on g7 we are then threatening ...Nxd4 after all.

EDIT: Or alternatively: 25...bxc3 26.bxc3 Bg7.

richs · 2014-04-15, 17:52

I did not go far enough down my second line.

I think we minimize our losses with the earlier line that I presented starting with Nxd4.

I just read Brian's post and I will look further today at Bg7.

Brian-E · 2014-04-15, 17:58

[QUOTE=richs;371287]I think we minimize our losses with the earlier line that I presented starting with Nxd4.[/QUOTE]
Yes, but as you discovered they can play the much stronger Ne4, instead of Ng4, so unfortunately we cannot minimize these losses.

paulunderwood · 2014-04-15, 18:13

25...Bg5 seems to lead to a messy endgame.

Maybe 25...Bg7 needs a closer look while we have time to do so. At least this weakens the White's Ne4 move and would delay the attacks analysed earlier by us by one move :smile:

paulunderwood · 2014-04-15, 19:06

One line:

25...Bg7
26.Nxc4 bxc3
27.bxc3 Nxc4
28.Nxa5 Ne2+
29.Kh1 Nxc3

richs · 2014-04-16, 00:02

Here's another:

25 ... Bg7
26 Rc1 Kd8
27 Nxc4 Nd5
28 Nd6 bxc3
29 bxc3 Bf8
30 Nxc8 Bxc5
31 dxc5 Kxc8
32 Bxh6 Rb2
33 Re1 Kd7
34 Bh3

Messy, and we lose bishops for knights.

Brian-E · 2014-04-16, 08:41

Paul's line above demonstrates the point of the ...Bg7 move, I think. They might alternatively go for (25...Bg7 26.Nxc4 bxc3 27.bxc3 Nxd4) 28.Nd6+ and 29.Nxc8 instead of grabbing the a pawn at once, but we are very much in the game here too.

In Rich's line I would suggest that we "could do better". (25...Bg7 26.Rc1 Kd8 27.Nxc4) 27...Nxd4 looks more to the point.

We are into our last 24 hours, so shall we all write our favoured move down?

Mine is [U]25...bxc3[/U]. (We can follow up with 26.bxc3 Bg7. Exchanging pawns now cuts down some of their options.)

If we turn out to have a tied vote and are out of discussion time, I am willing to change my vote to 25...Bg7 if that makes a majority decision.

paulunderwood · 2014-04-16, 09:42

My vote is for 25...Bg7 :smile:

Brian-E · 2014-04-16, 09:47

And now, due to indecision, I'm changing my vote. Sorry. (I'm actually slightly worried about the line 25...bxc3 26.Bxc3 Nxd4 27.Kf1 or 27.Kf2 after which I'm not immediately sure how we stop the a and c pawns falling without compensation.)

My vote is now 25...Bg7, in agreement with Paul.

richs · 2014-04-17, 04:44

I'll go for Bg7. The outcomes are as best as we can do at this point.

Our vote is due in a little over 7 hours. I will be asleep at that time but I can check to see if we cast our vote when I awake and post Bg7 if no one else has. We've cut white some slack on late votes so they should be ok if we are a little late.

Brian-E · 2014-04-17, 07:52

[QUOTE=richs;371393]Our vote is due in a little over 7 hours. I will be asleep at that time but I can check to see if we cast our vote when I awake and post Bg7 if no one else has. We've cut white some slack on late votes so they should be ok if we are a little late.[/QUOTE]
I won't be around either when the vote is due. I have to go out shortly, and I probably have no internet access until around 18.00 GMT Thursday.

It's rather unfortunate that David has not been around to post his opinion since you, Rich, discovered their apparently devastating move Ne4 in response to what we were intending to play earlier. It's possible that he has not even seen the discussion since then. I'm going to PM him now just in case the email notification which he might get would draw his attention.

In the meantime, I hope that either David or Paul might be around at the deadline to play our move then. What you say about our cutting our opponents slack on late moves is true, Rich, but I'd still be unhappy about infringing the time rules ourselves.

2014-04-15, 17:49	#23
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;371257]How about lines starting with 25...Bg5?[/QUOTE] Do you have any particular aim with this move? Clearly we're in trouble as we're losing the c pawn. I think we need to look for compensation for the coming pawn deficit which means we need activity, and exchanging dark squared bishops after they play Nxc4 gives up our pressure down the h8-a1 diagonal for good, it seems to me. My suggestion now: 25...Bg7 removing their tactical tricks from attacking this bishop, maintaining the threat against d4 and general pressure on the diagonal, and incidentally defending our h pawn. With the bishop out of the way on g7 we are then threatening ...Nxd4 after all. EDIT: Or alternatively: 25...bxc3 26.bxc3 Bg7. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-04-15 at 17:53

2014-04-15, 17:52	#24
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 6B6₁₆ Posts	I did not go far enough down my second line. I think we minimize our losses with the earlier line that I presented starting with Nxd4. I just read Brian's post and I will look further today at Bg7. Last fiddled with by richs on 2014-04-15 at 17:53

2014-04-16, 08:41	#29
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	Paul's line above demonstrates the point of the ...Bg7 move, I think. They might alternatively go for (25...Bg7 26.Nxc4 bxc3 27.bxc3 Nxd4) 28.Nd6+ and 29.Nxc8 instead of grabbing the a pawn at once, but we are very much in the game here too. In Rich's line I would suggest that we "could do better". (25...Bg7 26.Rc1 Kd8 27.Nxc4) 27...Nxd4 looks more to the point. We are into our last 24 hours, so shall we all write our favoured move down? Mine is [U]25...bxc3[/U]. (We can follow up with 26.bxc3 Bg7. Exchanging pawns now cuts down some of their options.) If we turn out to have a tied vote and are out of discussion time, I am willing to change my vote to 25...Bg7 if that makes a majority decision. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-04-16 at 08:55

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2014-04-15, 17:58	#25
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;371287]I think we minimize our losses with the earlier line that I presented starting with Nxd4.[/QUOTE] Yes, but as you discovered they can play the much stronger Ne4, instead of Ng4, so unfortunately we cannot minimize these losses.

2014-04-15, 18:13	#26
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 11115₈ Posts	25...Bg5 seems to lead to a messy endgame. Maybe 25...Bg7 needs a closer look while we have time to do so. At least this weakens the White's Ne4 move and would delay the attacks analysed earlier by us by one move :smile:

2014-04-15, 19:06	#27
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	One line: 25...Bg7 26.Nxc4 bxc3 27.bxc3 Nxc4 28.Nxa5 Ne2+ 29.Kh1 Nxc3

2014-04-16, 00:02	#28
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 1718₁₀ Posts	Here's another: 25 ... Bg7 26 Rc1 Kd8 27 Nxc4 Nd5 28 Nd6 bxc3 29 bxc3 Bf8 30 Nxc8 Bxc5 31 dxc5 Kxc8 32 Bxh6 Rb2 33 Re1 Kd7 34 Bh3 Messy, and we lose bishops for knights.

2014-04-16, 09:42	#30
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	My vote is for 25...Bg7 :smile:

2014-04-16, 09:47	#31
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	And now, due to indecision, I'm changing my vote. Sorry. (I'm actually slightly worried about the line 25...bxc3 26.Bxc3 Nxd4 27.Kf1 or 27.Kf2 after which I'm not immediately sure how we stop the a and c pawns falling without compensation.) My vote is now 25...Bg7, in agreement with Paul.

2014-04-17, 04:44	#32
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	I'll go for Bg7. The outcomes are as best as we can do at this point. Our vote is due in a little over 7 hours. I will be asleep at that time but I can check to see if we cast our vote when I awake and post Bg7 if no one else has. We've cut white some slack on late votes so they should be ok if we are a little late.

2014-04-17, 07:52	#33
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	[QUOTE=richs;371393]Our vote is due in a little over 7 hours. I will be asleep at that time but I can check to see if we cast our vote when I awake and post Bg7 if no one else has. We've cut white some slack on late votes so they should be ok if we are a little late.[/QUOTE] I won't be around either when the vote is due. I have to go out shortly, and I probably have no internet access until around 18.00 GMT Thursday. It's rather unfortunate that David has not been around to post his opinion since you, Rich, discovered their apparently devastating move Ne4 in response to what we were intending to play earlier. It's possible that he has not even seen the discussion since then. I'm going to PM him now just in case the email notification which he might get would draw his attention. In the meantime, I hope that either David or Paul might be around at the deadline to play our move then. What you say about our cutting our opponents slack on late moves is true, Rich, but I'd still be unhappy about infringing the time rules ourselves.