Move 25 - Page 2

henryzz · 2014-04-11, 21:47

[QUOTE=richs;370931]I think we will get into trouble with 25...Nxd4 as follows:

25. ... Nxd4
26. Ng4 Bg7
27. cxd4 Bxd4+
28. Be3 Bxb2
29. Rb1 Bg7
30 Bxh6

We lose a knight and pawn while taking 3 pawns.[/QUOTE]
30...Bxh6
31.Nxh6 c3
32.Ng4 c2
33.Rc1 b3

Seems to me that they would probably have to give up some material to stop us getting a promotion. Our promotion chances look very strong there.

Brian-E · 2014-04-11, 22:58

[QUOTE=henryzz;370946]30...Bxh6
31.Nxh6 c3
32.Ng4 c2
33.Rc1 b3

Seems to me that they would probably have to give up some material to stop us getting a promotion. Our promotion chances look very strong there.[/QUOTE]
Instead of 32.Ng4, they should play 32.Be4 followed by Bc2 with a water-tight blockade.
We might have chances in the line, but I'm doubtful.

henryzz · 2014-04-12, 11:32

[QUOTE=richs;370931]I think we will get into trouble with 25...Nxd4 as follows:

25. ... Nxd4
26. Ng4 Bg7
27. cxd4 Bxd4+
28. Be3 Bxb2
29. Rb1 Bg7
30 Bxh6

We lose a knight and pawn while taking 3 pawns.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=henryzz;370946]30...Bxh6
31.Nxh6 c3
32.Ng4 c2
33.Rc1 b3

Seems to me that they would probably have to give up some material to stop us getting a promotion. Our promotion chances look very strong there.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Brian-E;370954]Instead of 32.Ng4, they should play 32.Be4 followed by Bc2 with a water-tight blockade.
We might have chances in the line, but I'm doubtful.[/QUOTE]
32.Be4 e5
33.Bc2
At this point he can't safely move his knight on h6. We can do either Rb6 or Kh8 threatening to attack it next turn.
33...Rb6
34.Rf1 e4
We could do e4 because if he takes it with his knight or bishop then we are much more free to move our pawns forward.
Although we have less material at this point quite a bit of his is stopping us from getting a promotion. We can continue to use that to our advantage.

This is a possible line from there. I think I went too far into this one. I sort of ended up playing myself for a bit lol.
35.Bxe4 b3 36.Rc1 b2 37.Rxc3 Nf5 38.Rb3 Rxb3 39.Nxb3 Nxh6 40.Bxg6+ Kd8

Brian-E · 2014-04-12, 11:42

But clearly White must not play 35.Bxe4 there. The bishop must stay blockading the queenside pawns. And there's no need. The e pawn is going nowhere either, the further it advances the weaker it is. Whie has plenty of time to extricate the knight via f7, then round up the e pawn if we've advanced it too far.

The line may have chances for us, as I've said. But I now advocate the line 25...bxc3 26.bxc3 Nxd4 which I think is much safer for us.

Brian-E · 2014-04-14, 08:44

While we still have time, shall we each perhaps write down what our current preferred move is? Then we can see where we stand and what still needs to be discussed.

Mine is currently: 25...bxc3.

paulunderwood · 2014-04-14, 09:42

I too like 25...bxc3. Can we explore it?

Clearly, it forks b2 and d2. White must take c3? One line might be:

25...bxc3
26.Bxc3 Nxd4 (?)
27.Bxa5 Ne2+
28.Kf1 Rxb2
Here we have a potential discovered attack on White's rook.
Or we could play 28...Bd4 forking White's Knights --- we could could precede it with Nxg3, but then white could have moved the King to f2.

Another line:

25...bxc3
26.bxc3 Nxd4 (?)
27.cxd4 Bxd4
and we have forked White's Rook and Knights :smile:

henryzz · 2014-04-14, 12:27

While I think it quite possibly the better move I suspect we won't be able to solve all the lines of Nxd4.
I would go for bxc3 currently.

richs · 2014-04-14, 23:48

I prefer bxc3. Here's my analysis:

25 ... bxc3
26 bxc3 Nxd4
27 Ne4 Bg7
28 cxd4 Bxd4
29 Re1 Nf5
30 g4 c3
31 Bxc3 Bxc3 +
32 Kh1 Bd4
33 gxf5 Bxc3

We are up a pawn and have two bishops to their bishop and knight.

Brian-E · 2014-04-15, 07:51

No time at the moment, I've got to go out. But can someone reassure me here? I have to admit I overlooked the possibility, which Rich analyses above, of (25...bxc3 26.bxc3 Nxd4) 27.Ne4. At first glance we lose a piece for far less compensation than what we were looking at before following 25...Nxd4. At the end of Rich's line, for example, 34.Nxc3 and the e and f pawns after 34...gxf5 do not adequately compensate our piece deficit. White wins.

Brian-E · 2014-04-15, 07:55

And isn't 26.Ne4 a devastating response to 25...Nxd4 too?

Help!

paulunderwood · 2014-04-15, 11:38

[QUOTE=Brian-E;371250]And isn't 26.Ne4 a devastating response to 25...Nxd4 too?

Help![/QUOTE]

It is!

How about lines starting with 25...Bg5?

2014-04-14, 09:42	#17
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	I too like 25...bxc3. Can we explore it? Clearly, it forks b2 and d2. White must take c3? One line might be: 25...bxc3 26.Bxc3 Nxd4 (?) 27.Bxa5 Ne2+ 28.Kf1 Rxb2 Here we have a potential discovered attack on White's rook. Or we could play 28...Bd4 forking White's Knights --- we could could precede it with Nxg3, but then white could have moved the King to f2. Another line: 25...bxc3 26.bxc3 Nxd4 (?) 27.cxd4 Bxd4 and we have forked White's Rook and Knights :smile: Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-04-14 at 10:39

2014-04-15, 11:38	#22
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 1001001001101₂ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;371250]And isn't 26.Ne4 a devastating response to 25...Nxd4 too? Help![/QUOTE] It is! How about lines starting with 25...Bg5? Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-04-15 at 11:40

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2014-04-11, 21:47	#12
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;370931]I think we will get into trouble with 25...Nxd4 as follows: 25. ... Nxd4 26. Ng4 Bg7 27. cxd4 Bxd4+ 28. Be3 Bxb2 29. Rb1 Bg7 30 Bxh6 We lose a knight and pawn while taking 3 pawns.[/QUOTE] 30...Bxh6 31.Nxh6 c3 32.Ng4 c2 33.Rc1 b3 Seems to me that they would probably have to give up some material to stop us getting a promotion. Our promotion chances look very strong there.

2014-04-11, 22:58	#13
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;370946]30...Bxh6 31.Nxh6 c3 32.Ng4 c2 33.Rc1 b3 Seems to me that they would probably have to give up some material to stop us getting a promotion. Our promotion chances look very strong there.[/QUOTE] Instead of 32.Ng4, they should play 32.Be4 followed by Bc2 with a water-tight blockade. We might have chances in the line, but I'm doubtful.

2014-04-12, 11:32	#14
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 17FD₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=richs;370931]I think we will get into trouble with 25...Nxd4 as follows: 25. ... Nxd4 26. Ng4 Bg7 27. cxd4 Bxd4+ 28. Be3 Bxb2 29. Rb1 Bg7 30 Bxh6 We lose a knight and pawn while taking 3 pawns.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=henryzz;370946]30...Bxh6 31.Nxh6 c3 32.Ng4 c2 33.Rc1 b3 Seems to me that they would probably have to give up some material to stop us getting a promotion. Our promotion chances look very strong there.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Brian-E;370954]Instead of 32.Ng4, they should play 32.Be4 followed by Bc2 with a water-tight blockade. We might have chances in the line, but I'm doubtful.[/QUOTE] 32.Be4 e5 33.Bc2 At this point he can't safely move his knight on h6. We can do either Rb6 or Kh8 threatening to attack it next turn. 33...Rb6 34.Rf1 e4 We could do e4 because if he takes it with his knight or bishop then we are much more free to move our pawns forward. Although we have less material at this point quite a bit of his is stopping us from getting a promotion. We can continue to use that to our advantage. This is a possible line from there. I think I went too far into this one. I sort of ended up playing myself for a bit lol. 35.Bxe4 b3 36.Rc1 b2 37.Rxc3 Nf5 38.Rb3 Rxb3 39.Nxb3 Nxh6 40.Bxg6+ Kd8

2014-04-12, 11:42	#15
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	But clearly White must not play 35.Bxe4 there. The bishop must stay blockading the queenside pawns. And there's no need. The e pawn is going nowhere either, the further it advances the weaker it is. Whie has plenty of time to extricate the knight via f7, then round up the e pawn if we've advanced it too far. The line may have chances for us, as I've said. But I now advocate the line 25...bxc3 26.bxc3 Nxd4 which I think is much safer for us.

2014-04-14, 08:44	#16
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	While we still have time, shall we each perhaps write down what our current preferred move is? Then we can see where we stand and what still needs to be discussed. Mine is currently: 25...bxc3.

2014-04-14, 12:27	#18
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 6141₁₀ Posts	While I think it quite possibly the better move I suspect we won't be able to solve all the lines of Nxd4. I would go for bxc3 currently.

2014-04-14, 23:48	#19
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 11010110110₂ Posts	I prefer bxc3. Here's my analysis: 25 ... bxc3 26 bxc3 Nxd4 27 Ne4 Bg7 28 cxd4 Bxd4 29 Re1 Nf5 30 g4 c3 31 Bxc3 Bxc3 + 32 Kh1 Bd4 33 gxf5 Bxc3 We are up a pawn and have two bishops to their bishop and knight.

2014-04-15, 07:51	#20
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	No time at the moment, I've got to go out. But can someone reassure me here? I have to admit I overlooked the possibility, which Rich analyses above, of (25...bxc3 26.bxc3 Nxd4) 27.Ne4. At first glance we lose a piece for far less compensation than what we were looking at before following 25...Nxd4. At the end of Rich's line, for example, 34.Nxc3 and the e and f pawns after 34...gxf5 do not adequately compensate our piece deficit. White wins.

2014-04-15, 07:55	#21
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	And isn't 26.Ne4 a devastating response to 25...Nxd4 too? Help!