Move 25

paulunderwood · 2014-04-10, 12:28

White is attacking our c-Pawn. Do we play 25...bxc3? Or defand our h-Pawn? :smile:

henryzz · 2014-04-10, 13:19

How about Nxd4? I don't think they can take back.

paulunderwood · 2014-04-10, 13:37

[QUOTE=henryzz;370779]How about Nxd4? I don't think they can take back.[/QUOTE]

Yes, on line might be

25...Nxd4
26.cxd4 Bxc4
27.Ne4...

but we would be down on material :down:

henryzz · 2014-04-10, 13:53

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;370781]Yes, on line might be

25...Nxd4
26.cxd4 Bx[COLOR="Red"]d[/COLOR]4
27.Ne4...

but we would be down on material :down:[/QUOTE]

27...c3
28.bxc3 bxc3

I can't see him not losing material after that position.

Brian-E · 2014-04-11, 00:22

Just got in from a late shift at work and need to get to bed, but from a very quick look at the position I agree with David that 25...Nxd4 seems to work. Just to continue the line he gives, we have 25...Nxd4 26.cxd4 Bxd4 27.Ne4 c3 28.bxc3 bxc3 29.Nxc3 Rb2 30.Bc1 Rc2 winning back the piece and with an extra pawn.

But I need to look further tomorrow.

henryzz · 2014-04-11, 12:23

That line depends on 26.cxd4. I would guess there is likely something better than that considering the results of that line.
Two candidate lines.
25...Nxd4 26.cxb4
25...Nxd4 26.Nxc4

Brian-E · 2014-04-11, 13:09

[QUOTE=henryzz;370897]That line depends on 26.cxd4. I would guess there is likely something better than that considering the results of that line.
Two candidate lines.
25...Nxd4 26.cxb4
25...Nxd4 26.Nxc4[/QUOTE]
Agreed, 26.cxd4 would seem to be a bad move for them and the two moves you give are better ones.

25...Nxd4 26.Nxc4 bxc3 and then both 27.Bxc3 and 27.bxc3 can be answered by 27...Ne2+ and 28...Nxc3. We have no problems here.

25...Nxd4 26.cxb4 is trickier. But can we perhaps reply 26...Ne2+ 27.Kf1 Bxb2 28.Rb1 Bd4 29.Ne4 c3 ? I don't know if this is playable for us yet, need to look further.

In general terms, I'm very very keen to play 25...Nxd4. Any other move just lets them have it all their own way.

Brian-E · 2014-04-11, 13:24

Perhaps after 25...Nxd4 26.cxb4 Ne2+ 27.Kf1 Bxb2 they are better off playing 28.Ra2, not 28.Rb1, so that we no longer have 28...Bd4 attacking the knight on c5 because there is no pin on the b file.

Can anyone make the line work for us?

Brian-E · 2014-04-11, 13:45

Just one more suggestion before I stop hogging the thread for the moment.

If 25...Nxd4 26.cxb4 is not good for us, we could instead play 25...bxc3 26.bxc3 Nxd4. Now 27.Nxc4 Ne2+ and 28...Nxc3 transposes into what I think is for us the easier of the two lines starting from David's two suggested responses to 25...Nxd4.

richs · 2014-04-11, 19:51

I think we will get into trouble with 25...Nxd4 as follows:

25. ... Nxd4
26. Ng4 Bg7
27. cxd4 Bxd4+
28. Be3 Bxb2
29. Rb1 Bg7
30 Bxh6

We lose a knight and pawn while taking 3 pawns.

Brian-E · 2014-04-11, 21:36

[QUOTE=richs;370931]I think we will get into trouble with 25...Nxd4 as follows:

25. ... Nxd4
26. Ng4 Bg7
27. cxd4 Bxd4+
28. Be3 Bxb2
29. Rb1 Bg7
30 Bxh6

We lose a knight and pawn while taking 3 pawns.[/QUOTE]
This is a good point. 26.Ng4 might refute 25...Nxd4.
Our connected passed pawns resulting from your line might compensate for the piece to some extent, but I'm not convinced of that.

This is then perhaps an additional argument for playing 25...bxc3 first, and then only after 26.bxc3 Nxd4 (because now 27.Ng4 Bg7 28.cxd4? Bxd4+ 29.Be3 Bxa1).

2014-04-10, 12:28	#1
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	Move 25 White is attacking our c-Pawn. Do we play 25...bxc3? Or defand our h-Pawn? :smile: Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-04-10 at 12:29

2014-04-11, 13:09	#7
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;370897]That line depends on 26.cxd4. I would guess there is likely something better than that considering the results of that line. Two candidate lines. 25...Nxd4 26.cxb4 25...Nxd4 26.Nxc4[/QUOTE] Agreed, 26.cxd4 would seem to be a bad move for them and the two moves you give are better ones. 25...Nxd4 26.Nxc4 bxc3 and then both 27.Bxc3 and 27.bxc3 can be answered by 27...Ne2+ and 28...Nxc3. We have no problems here. 25...Nxd4 26.cxb4 is trickier. But can we perhaps reply 26...Ne2+ 27.Kf1 Bxb2 28.Rb1 Bd4 29.Ne4 c3 ? I don't know if this is playable for us yet, need to look further. In general terms, I'm very very keen to play 25...Nxd4. Any other move just lets them have it all their own way. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-04-11 at 13:32 Reason: notation error

2014-04-11, 21:36	#11
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;370931]I think we will get into trouble with 25...Nxd4 as follows: 25. ... Nxd4 26. Ng4 Bg7 27. cxd4 Bxd4+ 28. Be3 Bxb2 29. Rb1 Bg7 30 Bxh6 We lose a knight and pawn while taking 3 pawns.[/QUOTE] This is a good point. 26.Ng4 might refute 25...Nxd4. Our connected passed pawns resulting from your line might compensate for the piece to some extent, but I'm not convinced of that. This is then perhaps an additional argument for playing 25...bxc3 first, and then only after 26.bxc3 Nxd4 (because now 27.Ng4 Bg7 28.cxd4? Bxd4+ 29.Be3 Bxa1). Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-04-11 at 21:38

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2014-04-10, 13:19	#2
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	How about Nxd4? I don't think they can take back.

2014-04-10, 13:37	#3
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;370779]How about Nxd4? I don't think they can take back.[/QUOTE] Yes, on line might be 25...Nxd4 26.cxd4 Bxc4 27.Ne4... but we would be down on material :down:

2014-04-10, 13:53	#4
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;370781]Yes, on line might be 25...Nxd4 26.cxd4 Bx[COLOR="Red"]d[/COLOR]4 27.Ne4... but we would be down on material :down:[/QUOTE] 27...c3 28.bxc3 bxc3 I can't see him not losing material after that position.

2014-04-11, 00:22	#5
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Just got in from a late shift at work and need to get to bed, but from a very quick look at the position I agree with David that 25...Nxd4 seems to work. Just to continue the line he gives, we have 25...Nxd4 26.cxd4 Bxd4 27.Ne4 c3 28.bxc3 bxc3 29.Nxc3 Rb2 30.Bc1 Rc2 winning back the piece and with an extra pawn. But I need to look further tomorrow.

2014-04-11, 12:23	#6
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	That line depends on 26.cxd4. I would guess there is likely something better than that considering the results of that line. Two candidate lines. 25...Nxd4 26.cxb4 25...Nxd4 26.Nxc4

2014-04-11, 13:24	#8
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Perhaps after 25...Nxd4 26.cxb4 Ne2+ 27.Kf1 Bxb2 they are better off playing 28.Ra2, not 28.Rb1, so that we no longer have 28...Bd4 attacking the knight on c5 because there is no pin on the b file. Can anyone make the line work for us?

2014-04-11, 13:45	#9
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	Just one more suggestion before I stop hogging the thread for the moment. If 25...Nxd4 26.cxb4 is not good for us, we could instead play 25...bxc3 26.bxc3 Nxd4. Now 27.Nxc4 Ne2+ and 28...Nxc3 transposes into what I think is for us the easier of the two lines starting from David's two suggested responses to 25...Nxd4.

2014-04-11, 19:51	#10
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	I think we will get into trouble with 25...Nxd4 as follows: 25. ... Nxd4 26. Ng4 Bg7 27. cxd4 Bxd4+ 28. Be3 Bxb2 29. Rb1 Bg7 30 Bxh6 We lose a knight and pawn while taking 3 pawns.