Move 24 - Page 2

Brian-E · 2014-03-28, 16:59

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;369891]How would we reply to:

24...bxc3
25.Rf2

:question:[/QUOTE]
That looks unplayable for them. After 25...cxd2 I think they cannot stop us following up with ...Bxd4 and winning back the exchange with interest.

Brian-E · 2014-03-28, 17:05

[QUOTE=henryzz;369889]I suspect that they will likely do bxc3 taking us back to Rxf6[/QUOTE]
Yes, this is rather what puts me off 24...bxc3 on principle.
They have the choice whether to go in for the complications following preserving their rook on f6 or not. Simply 24...Bxf6 keeps control over the complications by avoiding them. It's not as if we are missing any opportunity, because they can avoid it anyway.

paulunderwood · 2014-03-28, 17:17

[QUOTE=Brian-E;369892]That looks unplayable for them. After 25...cxd2 I think they cannot stop us following up with ...Bxd4 and winning back the exchange with interest.[/QUOTE]

The line could go:

24...bxc3
25.Rf2 cxd2
26.Rxd2 Bxd4+
27.Kf1

We would have taken 2 Pawns and a Bishop in exchange for a Rook and a Pawn, and will have lost momentum :sad:

Brian-E · 2014-03-28, 17:20

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;369894]The line could go:

24...bxc3
25.Rf2 cxd2
26.Rxd2 Bxd4+
27.Kf1

We would have taken 2 Pawns and a Bishop in exchange for a Rook and a Pawn, and will have lost momentum :sad:[/QUOTE]
Then 27...Bxc5 and we have a big material advantage, right? Or have I missed something?

paulunderwood · 2014-03-28, 17:30

Oh deary me. You are right! :bow:

I need to study 24...bxc3 more deeply.

Brian-E · 2014-03-28, 17:36

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;369897]I need to study 24...bxc3 more deeply.[/QUOTE]
If you like, but note that the simple reply 25.bxc3 forces us back to a line following 24...Bxf6 anyway. For which reason, I think that playing 24...bxc3 can at best be merely a psychological ploy, a sort of tempter for them, and at worst a blunder leading to a lost position if they find a way of keeping the material we are sacrificing and neutralising any threats.

paulunderwood · 2014-03-28, 18:09

What about the line:

24...bxc3
25.Rf4 cxd2
26.Kh1 Bxd4 (maybe Nxd4 is better?)
27.Ne4

:question: Is this bad for us?

henryzz · 2014-03-28, 23:15

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;369902]What about the line:

24...bxc3
25.Rf4 cxd2
26.Kh1 Bxd4 (maybe Nxd4 is better?)
27.Ne4

:question: Is this bad for us?[/QUOTE]

I think that is fine. 26...Nd5 is another possibility.

Brian-E · 2014-03-29, 09:35

I think we have good winning chances at the end of Paul's line. But I also think the white king must rush to the centre to deal with our advanced pawns, not go to h1, and then it gets very double-edged.

One line is:
24...bxc3 25.Rf4 cxd2 26.Kf1 Bxd4 27.Ne4 Bxb2 28.Nxb2 Rxb2 29.Rd1 Nd5 30.Rf3 Ba6 31.Nc3 Rb3 32.Rxd2 Rxc3 33.Rxc3 Nxc3 34.Bxc6+ and I find this ending difficult to assess.
{EDIT: Oops, no, it's remarkably easy to assess. 34...Ke7 35.Rd7+ Kf6 36.Ra7 Bc8 37.Ra8 wins our bishop. We'd have to do better than that, and I'm sure we can somewhere.}

I see nothing clearly wrong with 24...bxc3. They can avoid the complications with 25.bxc3.

paulunderwood · 2014-03-29, 21:21

One line:

24...bxc3
25.Rf4 cxd2
26.Ne4 Bxd4+
27.Kh1 Nd5
28.Rf1 Ne5
29.Nxd2

At this point we dominate the center, but is this good enough?

Brian-E · 2014-03-30, 09:11

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;369967]One line:

24...bxc3
25.Rf4 cxd2
26.Ne4 Bxd4+
27.Kh1 Nd5
28.Rf1 Ne5
29.Nxd2

At this point we dominate the center, but is this good enough?[/QUOTE]
26.Ne4 and capturing the d pawn would indeed seem a sensible course of action for them. It might be good enough for us, but I think if there are winning chances for either side they are for White. We are an exchange down, we have no clear immediate threats, and the compensatory extra pawns may turn out to be vulnerable.

I advocate 24...Bxf6 and anticipate a line like the following (which they can more or less force us into anyway after 24...bxc3 25.bxc3 if they don't find a clear win following 25.Rf4):
24...Bxf6 25.Ne4 Bg7 (I don't think 25...Bxd4+ hoping to push the queenside really gives us adequate compensation for the piece, but we might examine it further when we get that far) 26.Ne3 bxc3 27.bxc3 Nd5 28.Nxc4 Nxd4 29.Nxa5 Ne2+ 30.Kf1 Nexc3. White is better here, but the winning chances are minimal I think because we should be able to blockade the a pawn adequately.

2014-03-28, 17:36	#17
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;369897]I need to study 24...bxc3 more deeply.[/QUOTE] If you like, but note that the simple reply 25.bxc3 forces us back to a line following 24...Bxf6 anyway. For which reason, I think that playing 24...bxc3 can at best be merely a psychological ploy, a sort of tempter for them, and at worst a blunder leading to a lost position if they find a way of keeping the material we are sacrificing and neutralising any threats. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-03-28 at 17:37

2014-03-28, 18:09	#18
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	What about the line: 24...bxc3 25.Rf4 cxd2 26.Kh1 Bxd4 (maybe Nxd4 is better?) 27.Ne4 :question: Is this bad for us? Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-03-28 at 18:10

2014-03-29, 09:35	#20
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	I think we have good winning chances at the end of Paul's line. But I also think the white king must rush to the centre to deal with our advanced pawns, not go to h1, and then it gets very double-edged. One line is: 24...bxc3 25.Rf4 cxd2 26.Kf1 Bxd4 27.Ne4 Bxb2 28.Nxb2 Rxb2 29.Rd1 Nd5 30.Rf3 Ba6 31.Nc3 Rb3 32.Rxd2 Rxc3 33.Rxc3 Nxc3 34.Bxc6+ and I find this ending difficult to assess. {EDIT: Oops, no, it's remarkably easy to assess. 34...Ke7 35.Rd7+ Kf6 36.Ra7 Bc8 37.Ra8 wins our bishop. We'd have to do better than that, and I'm sure we can somewhere.} I see nothing clearly wrong with 24...bxc3. They can avoid the complications with 25.bxc3. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-03-29 at 09:58

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2014-03-28, 16:59	#12
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;369891]How would we reply to: 24...bxc3 25.Rf2 :question:[/QUOTE] That looks unplayable for them. After 25...cxd2 I think they cannot stop us following up with ...Bxd4 and winning back the exchange with interest.

2014-03-28, 17:05	#13
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;369889]I suspect that they will likely do bxc3 taking us back to Rxf6[/QUOTE] Yes, this is rather what puts me off 24...bxc3 on principle. They have the choice whether to go in for the complications following preserving their rook on f6 or not. Simply 24...Bxf6 keeps control over the complications by avoiding them. It's not as if we are missing any opportunity, because they can avoid it anyway.

2014-03-28, 17:17	#14
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 124D₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;369892]That looks unplayable for them. After 25...cxd2 I think they cannot stop us following up with ...Bxd4 and winning back the exchange with interest.[/QUOTE] The line could go: 24...bxc3 25.Rf2 cxd2 26.Rxd2 Bxd4+ 27.Kf1 We would have taken 2 Pawns and a Bishop in exchange for a Rook and a Pawn, and will have lost momentum :sad:

2014-03-28, 17:20	#15
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;369894]The line could go: 24...bxc3 25.Rf2 cxd2 26.Rxd2 Bxd4+ 27.Kf1 We would have taken 2 Pawns and a Bishop in exchange for a Rook and a Pawn, and will have lost momentum :sad:[/QUOTE] Then 27...Bxc5 and we have a big material advantage, right? Or have I missed something?

2014-03-28, 17:30	#16
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 124D₁₆ Posts	Oh deary me. You are right! :bow: I need to study 24...bxc3 more deeply.

2014-03-28, 23:15	#19
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;369902]What about the line: 24...bxc3 25.Rf4 cxd2 26.Kh1 Bxd4 (maybe Nxd4 is better?) 27.Ne4 :question: Is this bad for us?[/QUOTE] I think that is fine. 26...Nd5 is another possibility.

2014-03-29, 21:21	#21
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 124D₁₆ Posts	One line: 24...bxc3 25.Rf4 cxd2 26.Ne4 Bxd4+ 27.Kh1 Nd5 28.Rf1 Ne5 29.Nxd2 At this point we dominate the center, but is this good enough?

2014-03-30, 09:11	#22
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;369967]One line: 24...bxc3 25.Rf4 cxd2 26.Ne4 Bxd4+ 27.Kh1 Nd5 28.Rf1 Ne5 29.Nxd2 At this point we dominate the center, but is this good enough?[/QUOTE] 26.Ne4 and capturing the d pawn would indeed seem a sensible course of action for them. It might be good enough for us, but I think if there are winning chances for either side they are for White. We are an exchange down, we have no clear immediate threats, and the compensatory extra pawns may turn out to be vulnerable. I advocate 24...Bxf6 and anticipate a line like the following (which they can more or less force us into anyway after 24...bxc3 25.bxc3 if they don't find a clear win following 25.Rf4): 24...Bxf6 25.Ne4 Bg7 (I don't think 25...Bxd4+ hoping to push the queenside really gives us adequate compensation for the piece, but we might examine it further when we get that far) 26.Ne3 bxc3 27.bxc3 Nd5 28.Nxc4 Nxd4 29.Nxa5 Ne2+ 30.Kf1 Nexc3. White is better here, but the winning chances are minimal I think because we should be able to blockade the a pawn adequately.