Move 24

paulunderwood · 2014-03-27, 15:43

I don't think we'll need long to agree on 24...Bxf6 :smile:

richs · 2014-03-27, 19:06

Agreed. There's no other reasonable move and it is in accordance with our analysis.

Brian-E · 2014-03-27, 20:10

Of course, 24...Bxf6. Nothing to think about.:smile:

henryzz · 2014-03-27, 22:20

We could do bxc3 first but I agree probably Bxf6

Brian-E · 2014-03-27, 22:40

[QUOTE=henryzz;369852]We could do bxc3 first but I agree probably Bxf6[/QUOTE]
Hmm, yes. I didn't even consider 24...bxc3. On inspection it seems to lead to complications which favour them. One line is 24...bxc3 25.Bxh6 cxb2? 26.Bxg7! (26...bxa1=Q 27.Rf8 mate).

So I agree with you, simply 24...Bxf6 is probably best.

EDIT: After 24...bxc3, 25.Bxh6 is probably not good here on second thoughts, we play simply 25...Bxf6 26.bxc3 Nxd4.
Instead 25.Rf4 is complicated. 25...cxd2 and 25...Nxd4 are both tricky. Anyone care to analyse these possibilities?

Brian-E · 2014-03-28, 10:19

I guess my unwillingness to analyse the complications following David's suggested (but not advocated) move 24...bxc3 is that those complications seem to favour White on principle. The point is that it is White who has the huge variety of choice in how they proceed, and from our point of view it is merely unnecessarily "messy", risking a material disadvantage with no particular gain other than possibly bamboozling them with their choice of how to continue. That strategy might be appropriate in a blitz game, but I don't see any need for it here given that we have a reasonable position.

Whereas 24...Bxf6 is more clearly sound and forces them to do something about our threats on the long diagonal.

I still advocate 24...Bxf6. David says he does too despite pointing out the possibility of 24...bxc3. Paul and Rich, have your opinions changed after seeing David's post?

paulunderwood · 2014-03-28, 10:58

24...Bxf6 I consider best. White might play 25.Bf4 to harass our Rook, but I think we have good counterplay. In fact, there are many possibilities for move 25, as Brian has said. If White plays 25.Bxh6, I think we should play:

25...bxc3
26.bxc3 Nxd4

with the threat of a fork if White takes out Knight.

Brian-E · 2014-03-28, 11:22

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;369881]24...Bxf6 I consider best. White might play 25.Bf4 to harass our Rook, but I think we have good counterplay.[/QUOTE]
Yes, for example 25...bxc3 26.bxc3 (26.Bxb8 cxb2 followed by Bxd4+ looks good for us) e5 27.dxe5 Bxe5 28.Bxh6 Bf5 with good compensation for the pawn.

I think that (24...Bxf6) 25.Ne4 may be best. We can then consider the piece sacrifice 25...Bxd4+ aiming to rush the queenside pawns forward, or the more conservative 25...Bg7.

henryzz · 2014-03-28, 15:55

[QUOTE=Brian-E;369854]Hmm, yes. I didn't even consider 24...bxc3. On inspection it seems to lead to complications which favour them. One line is 24...bxc3 25.Bxh6 cxb2? 26.Bxg7! (26...bxa1=Q 27.Rf8 mate).

So I agree with you, simply 24...Bxf6 is probably best.

EDIT: After 24...bxc3, 25.Bxh6 is probably not good here on second thoughts, we play simply 25...Bxf6 26.bxc3 Nxd4.
Instead 25.Rf4 is complicated. 25...cxd2 and 25...Nxd4 are both tricky. Anyone care to analyse these possibilities?[/QUOTE]
I can't see how 24...bxc3 25.Rf4 Nxd4 would work for us at all as they can take our pawn on c3.
Looking at:
24...bxc3 25.Rf4 cxd2
They have a good few possible moves here but I can't see any particularly problematic ones and the pawn on the second file looks quite good.
One of my favorite possibilities is moving our knight to b3 via d4. Here we can play havoc with his queenside rook.
I see that we would need to put so work into bxc3 but I suspect it has some nice lines.
I suspect that they will likely do bxc3 taking us back to Rxf6

paulunderwood · 2014-03-28, 16:20

[QUOTE=henryzz;369889]I can't see how 24...bxc3 25.Rf4 Nxd4 would work for us at all as they can take our pawn on c3.
Looking at:
24...bxc3 25.Rf4 cxd2
They have a good few possible moves here but I can't see any particularly problematic ones and the pawn on the second file looks quite good.
One of my favorite possibilities is moving our knight to b3 via d4. Here we can play havoc with his queenside rook.
I see that we would need to put so work into bxc3 but I suspect it has some nice lines.
I suspect that they will likely do bxc3 taking us back to Rxf6[/QUOTE]

We have 6 days to study the line 24...bxc3 25.Rf4 cxd2, which I am warming to. Just when I thought our move was determined :surprised

paulunderwood · 2014-03-28, 16:40

How would we reply to:

24...bxc3
25.Rf2

:question:

2014-03-27, 15:43	#1
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	Move 24 I don't think we'll need long to agree on 24...Bxf6 :smile: Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-03-27 at 15:45

2014-03-27, 22:40	#5
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;369852]We could do bxc3 first but I agree probably Bxf6[/QUOTE] Hmm, yes. I didn't even consider 24...bxc3. On inspection it seems to lead to complications which favour them. One line is 24...bxc3 25.Bxh6 cxb2? 26.Bxg7! (26...bxa1=Q 27.Rf8 mate). So I agree with you, simply 24...Bxf6 is probably best. EDIT: After 24...bxc3, 25.Bxh6 is probably not good here on second thoughts, we play simply 25...Bxf6 26.bxc3 Nxd4. Instead 25.Rf4 is complicated. 25...cxd2 and 25...Nxd4 are both tricky. Anyone care to analyse these possibilities? Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-03-27 at 22:56

2014-03-28, 10:58	#7
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	24...Bxf6 I consider best. White might play 25.Bf4 to harass our Rook, but I think we have good counterplay. In fact, there are many possibilities for move 25, as Brian has said. If White plays 25.Bxh6, I think we should play: 25...bxc3 26.bxc3 Nxd4 with the threat of a fork if White takes out Knight. Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-03-28 at 11:04

2014-03-28, 16:20	#10
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;369889]I can't see how 24...bxc3 25.Rf4 Nxd4 would work for us at all as they can take our pawn on c3. Looking at: 24...bxc3 25.Rf4 cxd2 They have a good few possible moves here but I can't see any particularly problematic ones and the pawn on the second file looks quite good. One of my favorite possibilities is moving our knight to b3 via d4. Here we can play havoc with his queenside rook. I see that we would need to put so work into bxc3 but I suspect it has some nice lines. I suspect that they will likely do bxc3 taking us back to Rxf6[/QUOTE] We have 6 days to study the line 24...bxc3 25.Rf4 cxd2, which I am warming to. Just when I thought our move was determined :surprised Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-03-28 at 16:25

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2014-03-27, 19:06	#2
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	Agreed. There's no other reasonable move and it is in accordance with our analysis.

2014-03-27, 20:10	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Of course, 24...Bxf6. Nothing to think about.:smile:

2014-03-27, 22:20	#4
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 6141₁₀ Posts	We could do bxc3 first but I agree probably Bxf6

2014-03-28, 10:19	#6
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	I guess my unwillingness to analyse the complications following David's suggested (but not advocated) move 24...bxc3 is that those complications seem to favour White on principle. The point is that it is White who has the huge variety of choice in how they proceed, and from our point of view it is merely unnecessarily "messy", risking a material disadvantage with no particular gain other than possibly bamboozling them with their choice of how to continue. That strategy might be appropriate in a blitz game, but I don't see any need for it here given that we have a reasonable position. Whereas 24...Bxf6 is more clearly sound and forces them to do something about our threats on the long diagonal. I still advocate 24...Bxf6. David says he does too despite pointing out the possibility of 24...bxc3. Paul and Rich, have your opinions changed after seeing David's post?

2014-03-28, 11:22	#8
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;369881]24...Bxf6 I consider best. White might play 25.Bf4 to harass our Rook, but I think we have good counterplay.[/QUOTE] Yes, for example 25...bxc3 26.bxc3 (26.Bxb8 cxb2 followed by Bxd4+ looks good for us) e5 27.dxe5 Bxe5 28.Bxh6 Bf5 with good compensation for the pawn. I think that (24...Bxf6) 25.Ne4 may be best. We can then consider the piece sacrifice 25...Bxd4+ aiming to rush the queenside pawns forward, or the more conservative 25...Bg7.

2014-03-28, 15:55	#9
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 17FD₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;369854]Hmm, yes. I didn't even consider 24...bxc3. On inspection it seems to lead to complications which favour them. One line is 24...bxc3 25.Bxh6 cxb2? 26.Bxg7! (26...bxa1=Q 27.Rf8 mate). So I agree with you, simply 24...Bxf6 is probably best. EDIT: After 24...bxc3, 25.Bxh6 is probably not good here on second thoughts, we play simply 25...Bxf6 26.bxc3 Nxd4. Instead 25.Rf4 is complicated. 25...cxd2 and 25...Nxd4 are both tricky. Anyone care to analyse these possibilities?[/QUOTE] I can't see how 24...bxc3 25.Rf4 Nxd4 would work for us at all as they can take our pawn on c3. Looking at: 24...bxc3 25.Rf4 cxd2 They have a good few possible moves here but I can't see any particularly problematic ones and the pawn on the second file looks quite good. One of my favorite possibilities is moving our knight to b3 via d4. Here we can play havoc with his queenside rook. I see that we would need to put so work into bxc3 but I suspect it has some nice lines. I suspect that they will likely do bxc3 taking us back to Rxf6

2014-03-28, 16:40	#11
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	How would we reply to: 24...bxc3 25.Rf2 :question: