Move 21

Brian-E · 2014-02-22, 18:02

It's interesting that they've declined to take off our f7 pawn for now.

The three plausible moves which I can see at the moment to deal with the attack on our bishop are 21...Bc8, 21...Bb7, and 21...Ra8. The last one would not have been an option if we'd played 20...Nd8, but might be good now, the point being that after exchanges by White on a6 and b4 their a pawn would be en prise if they played Rc1.

paulunderwood · 2014-02-25, 14:19

An alternative might be 21...Bc8, getting away from the attack by White's knight and helping to protect e6 should be we decide to advance our f-pawn, but it leaves c4 undefended. Having said this, I think 21...Ra8 is our best option. :smile:

henryzz · 2014-02-25, 15:10

I was thinking Bc8

Brian-E · 2014-02-25, 17:51

At the moment I think 21...Bc8 is best too. The horse on c5 is then not really doing anything much and may have to go back to e4 to mean anything. Letting them exchange our a6 bishop does rather justify their last move for them.

After 21...Bc8 we'll be ready to play ...Nd5 on the next move or shortly.

EDIT: I'd just like to add that Paul's point that 21...Bc8 defends e6 is a good one. If we are able to play ...f5 at some point that might solve all our problems.

richs · 2014-02-25, 23:09

Here's one line for Bc8:

21 ... Bc8
22 Bd2 bxc3
23 Bxc3 Nd5
24 Ne3 Nxe3
25 Bxc6+ Ke7
26 Rf2 f6
27 Re1 fxe5
28 Rxf8 Kxf8

and we are up a pawn.

Brian-E · 2014-02-25, 23:34

[QUOTE=richs;367802]Here's one line for Bc8:

21 ... Bc8
22 Bd2 bxc3
23 Bxc3 Nd5
24 Ne3 Nxe3
25 Bxc6+ Ke7
26 Rf2 f6
27 Re1 fxe5
28 Rxf8 Kxf8

and we are up a pawn.[/QUOTE]
An interesting line. But "up a pawn" at the end seems an odd assessment to me. After 29.dxe5 material is level and our a pawn and c pawn are very vulnerable. (Not 29.Rxe3 exd4 30.Rf3+ Ke7 31.Bxa5 Kd6 wins the piece back with a wild but probably won position for us!)

I guess both sides can improve at various points earlier in your line.

richs · 2014-02-26, 00:50

I miscounted pawns, whoops!

Brian-E · 2014-02-26, 08:51

At the moment I'm not getting away from the idea that 21...Ra8 is simply a bad move. It deactivates our rook, and after 22.Nxa6 (they don't have to play this immediately, but why not?) Rxa6 our rook on a6 is virtually paralysed there on that useless square because other squares in the vicinity are threatened by the pair of white bishops.

Paul, do you still advocate 21...Ra8, and can you justify it? Does anyone else advocate it (or 21...Rb6)?

paulunderwood · 2014-02-26, 09:30

21...Ra8 is okay in that our Bishop defends c4. If the Bishop is taken and our Rook retaliates, we will have stopped White's advanced Knight. However, our Rook is best placed on the b file inorder to get it onto b3. If White does not take our Bishop, then they have their Knight attacking e6 and will have deactivated our Rook; Also they will be able to build up a control of the center by advancing their other knight.

In short, I am inclined to agree with 21...Bc8, followed with 22...Ne5 or 22...f5 or 22...f6. :smile:

Brian-E · 2014-02-26, 09:41

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;367849]In short, I am inclined to agree with 21...Bc8, followed with 22...Ne5 or 22...f5 or 22...f6. :smile:[/QUOTE]
Yes, agreed. In fact, because of our possibility of ...f5 (at least after ...Nd5 so that they don't have 23.exf6 Bxf6 24.Bxh6) which either takes away their e4 square from them or (if they capture e.p.) their d6 and f6 squares), I think they will probably need to move the knight back from c5 to e4. And after that waste of time by them, we have time to safeguard our f7 pawn which they could have taken last move with 21.Nd6+.

henryzz · 2014-02-27, 00:21

[QUOTE=richs;367802]Here's one line for Bc8:

21 ... Bc8
22 Bd2 bxc3
23 Bxc3 Nd5
24 Ne3 Nxe3
25 Bxc6+ Ke7
26 Rf2 f6
27 Re1 fxe5
28 Rxf8 Kxf8

and we are up a pawn.[/QUOTE]

Why not 23. bxc3 ?

2014-02-22, 18:02	#1
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	Move 21 It's interesting that they've declined to take off our f7 pawn for now. The three plausible moves which I can see at the moment to deal with the attack on our bishop are 21...Bc8, 21...Bb7, and 21...Ra8. The last one would not have been an option if we'd played 20...Nd8, but might be good now, the point being that after exchanges by White on a6 and b4 their a pawn would be en prise if they played Rc1.

2014-02-25, 17:51	#4
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	At the moment I think 21...Bc8 is best too. The horse on c5 is then not really doing anything much and may have to go back to e4 to mean anything. Letting them exchange our a6 bishop does rather justify their last move for them. After 21...Bc8 we'll be ready to play ...Nd5 on the next move or shortly. EDIT: I'd just like to add that Paul's point that 21...Bc8 defends e6 is a good one. If we are able to play ...f5 at some point that might solve all our problems. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-02-25 at 18:36

2014-02-25, 23:34	#6
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;367802]Here's one line for Bc8: 21 ... Bc8 22 Bd2 bxc3 23 Bxc3 Nd5 24 Ne3 Nxe3 25 Bxc6+ Ke7 26 Rf2 f6 27 Re1 fxe5 28 Rxf8 Kxf8 and we are up a pawn.[/QUOTE] An interesting line. But "up a pawn" at the end seems an odd assessment to me. After 29.dxe5 material is level and our a pawn and c pawn are very vulnerable. (Not 29.Rxe3 exd4 30.Rf3+ Ke7 31.Bxa5 Kd6 wins the piece back with a wild but probably won position for us!) I guess both sides can improve at various points earlier in your line. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-02-25 at 23:37

2014-02-26, 09:30	#9
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	21...Ra8 is okay in that our Bishop defends c4. If the Bishop is taken and our Rook retaliates, we will have stopped White's advanced Knight. However, our Rook is best placed on the b file inorder to get it onto b3. If White does not take our Bishop, then they have their Knight attacking e6 and will have deactivated our Rook; Also they will be able to build up a control of the center by advancing their other knight. In short, I am inclined to agree with 21...Bc8, followed with 22...Ne5 or 22...f5 or 22...f6. :smile: Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-02-26 at 09:40

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2014-02-25, 14:19	#2
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	An alternative might be 21...Bc8, getting away from the attack by White's knight and helping to protect e6 should be we decide to advance our f-pawn, but it leaves c4 undefended. Having said this, I think 21...Ra8 is our best option. :smile:

2014-02-25, 15:10	#3
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 1011111111101₂ Posts	I was thinking Bc8

2014-02-25, 23:09	#5
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 6B6₁₆ Posts	Here's one line for Bc8: 21 ... Bc8 22 Bd2 bxc3 23 Bxc3 Nd5 24 Ne3 Nxe3 25 Bxc6+ Ke7 26 Rf2 f6 27 Re1 fxe5 28 Rxf8 Kxf8 and we are up a pawn.

2014-02-26, 00:50	#7
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	I miscounted pawns, whoops!

2014-02-26, 08:51	#8
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	At the moment I'm not getting away from the idea that 21...Ra8 is simply a bad move. It deactivates our rook, and after 22.Nxa6 (they don't have to play this immediately, but why not?) Rxa6 our rook on a6 is virtually paralysed there on that useless square because other squares in the vicinity are threatened by the pair of white bishops. Paul, do you still advocate 21...Ra8, and can you justify it? Does anyone else advocate it (or 21...Rb6)?

2014-02-26, 09:41	#10
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;367849]In short, I am inclined to agree with 21...Bc8, followed with 22...Ne5 or 22...f5 or 22...f6. :smile:[/QUOTE] Yes, agreed. In fact, because of our possibility of ...f5 (at least after ...Nd5 so that they don't have 23.exf6 Bxf6 24.Bxh6) which either takes away their e4 square from them or (if they capture e.p.) their d6 and f6 squares), I think they will probably need to move the knight back from c5 to e4. And after that waste of time by them, we have time to safeguard our f7 pawn which they could have taken last move with 21.Nd6+.

2014-02-27, 00:21	#11
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;367802]Here's one line for Bc8: 21 ... Bc8 22 Bd2 bxc3 23 Bxc3 Nd5 24 Ne3 Nxe3 25 Bxc6+ Ke7 26 Rf2 f6 27 Re1 fxe5 28 Rxf8 Kxf8 and we are up a pawn.[/QUOTE] Why not 23. bxc3 ?