Move 20 - Page 2

henryzz · 2014-02-12, 22:03

[QUOTE=Brian-E;366792]Okay, that would be something to argue about at the time if we get that far.:smile:

A different idea which I can't for the moment refute: in David's line, does 20...Nd8 21.Nc5 Rb6 work as a means of trying to maintain material equality?
Edit: The idea being, if 22.Nxa6 Rxa6 23.cxb4 axb4 24.Rc1 would leave their a pawn en prise, and if White plays a quiet move we can play 22...b3 or 23...b3. For the moment I see no way for White to exploit the veiled attack on the b6 rook with the bishop: if 22.Ne4 Rb8 repeats moves. What can they do?[/QUOTE]

You would end up with 22.cxb4 No matter what black does then white gets a pawn on a5 forcing the rook off the row leaving the bishop undefended.

Brian-E · 2014-02-12, 23:10

[QUOTE=henryzz;366795]You would end up with 22.cxb4 No matter what black does then white gets a pawn on a5 forcing the rook off the row leaving the bishop undefended.[/QUOTE]
Oh yes, I saw that when you posted the line before but then forgot just now.
If (20...Nd8 21.Nc5 Rb6 22.cxb4) c3, then 23.b5 is equally hopeless.

Brian-E · 2014-02-14, 00:38

I currently favour 20...O-O on the grounds that we are losing at least a pawn anyway and we should play as actively as possible to seek compensation.

paulunderwood · 2014-02-15, 04:58

I think castling is going to lead to a rook lift by White onto the h-file if we try to stop the double rook fork. :down:

By way of damage limitation, what about:

20...Kd8

Then one line might be:

21.Rxf7 Nf5 and we have trapped White's rook.

Is their a weakness with 20...Kd8? :unsure:

paulunderwood · 2014-02-15, 06:17

This might be better:

20...Kd8
21 Rxf7 Bf8

:smile:

paulunderwood · 2014-02-15, 07:50

Another move is 20...Rf8 :smile:

Brian-E · 2014-02-15, 10:02

Good observations.

20...Kd8 21.Rxf7 Nf5 22.g4 Nxe3 (22...Ke8 23.Rc7) 23.Nxe3 followed by Raf1 and our position is collapsing I think, but maybe you have seen this because you later advocated 21...Bf8.

20...Kd8 21.Rxf7 Bf8 is better, yes, but what a hopeless position. A pawn down already, they can probably pick up the e pawn too with Rf6 and Nc5, White has all the play and we have no counterplay.

20...Rf8 21.Nd6+ is no fun either.

BUT: I now think you are correct that 20...O-O leads to their rook coming into the h file and forcing a quick win (unless we give up the exchange with the knight fork). We only seem to be able to hold that off for a while. So, yes, 20...O-O may lead to a quick forced loss. But if we have to play a more passive move, I advocate 20...Nd8. The objection to that move before, that 20...Nd8 21.Nc5 leads to the win of our c pawn and a miserable position, also applies to other passive moves by us if they don't choose anything more drastic.

20...Nd8 at least has the merit of preventing them invading on f7.

henryzz · 2014-02-15, 12:56

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;367027]Another move is 20...Rf8 :smile:[/QUOTE]
I just came to the same conclusion.

Brian-E · 2014-02-15, 14:14

Hmm, yes. 20...Rf8 21.Nd6+ Kd7 22.Rxf7 Rxf7 23.Nxf7 Nf5 24.g4 Nxe3 25.Nxe3 bxc3 26.bxc3 Rb3 27.Nd1 Ne7 28.Nd6 Nd5 leaves us still fighting.

Brian-E · 2014-02-16, 11:23

With just over 24 hours to the deadline, is it time for us all to state our currently preferred move?

Mine is now: 20...Rf8

paulunderwood · 2014-02-16, 11:34

Yes, 20...Rf8, gets my vote because it gives us a fighting chance. :smile:

2014-02-15, 06:17	#16
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	This might be better: 20...Kd8 21 Rxf7 Bf8 :smile: Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-02-15 at 06:26

2014-02-15, 10:02	#18
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	Good observations. 20...Kd8 21.Rxf7 Nf5 22.g4 Nxe3 (22...Ke8 23.Rc7) 23.Nxe3 followed by Raf1 and our position is collapsing I think, but maybe you have seen this because you later advocated 21...Bf8. 20...Kd8 21.Rxf7 Bf8 is better, yes, but what a hopeless position. A pawn down already, they can probably pick up the e pawn too with Rf6 and Nc5, White has all the play and we have no counterplay. 20...Rf8 21.Nd6+ is no fun either. BUT: I now think you are correct that 20...O-O leads to their rook coming into the h file and forcing a quick win (unless we give up the exchange with the knight fork). We only seem to be able to hold that off for a while. So, yes, 20...O-O may lead to a quick forced loss. But if we have to play a more passive move, I advocate 20...Nd8. The objection to that move before, that 20...Nd8 21.Nc5 leads to the win of our c pawn and a miserable position, also applies to other passive moves by us if they don't choose anything more drastic. 20...Nd8 at least has the merit of preventing them invading on f7. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-02-15 at 10:07

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2014-02-12, 22:03	#12
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;366792]Okay, that would be something to argue about at the time if we get that far.:smile: A different idea which I can't for the moment refute: in David's line, does 20...Nd8 21.Nc5 Rb6 work as a means of trying to maintain material equality? Edit: The idea being, if 22.Nxa6 Rxa6 23.cxb4 axb4 24.Rc1 would leave their a pawn en prise, and if White plays a quiet move we can play 22...b3 or 23...b3. For the moment I see no way for White to exploit the veiled attack on the b6 rook with the bishop: if 22.Ne4 Rb8 repeats moves. What can they do?[/QUOTE] You would end up with 22.cxb4 No matter what black does then white gets a pawn on a5 forcing the rook off the row leaving the bishop undefended.

2014-02-12, 23:10	#13
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;366795]You would end up with 22.cxb4 No matter what black does then white gets a pawn on a5 forcing the rook off the row leaving the bishop undefended.[/QUOTE] Oh yes, I saw that when you posted the line before but then forgot just now. If (20...Nd8 21.Nc5 Rb6 22.cxb4) c3, then 23.b5 is equally hopeless.

2014-02-14, 00:38	#14
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	I currently favour 20...O-O on the grounds that we are losing at least a pawn anyway and we should play as actively as possible to seek compensation.

2014-02-15, 04:58	#15
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	I think castling is going to lead to a rook lift by White onto the h-file if we try to stop the double rook fork. :down: By way of damage limitation, what about: 20...Kd8 Then one line might be: 21.Rxf7 Nf5 and we have trapped White's rook. Is their a weakness with 20...Kd8? :unsure:

2014-02-15, 07:50	#17
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 11115₈ Posts	Another move is 20...Rf8 :smile:

2014-02-15, 12:56	#19
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;367027]Another move is 20...Rf8 :smile:[/QUOTE] I just came to the same conclusion.

2014-02-15, 14:14	#20
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Hmm, yes. 20...Rf8 21.Nd6+ Kd7 22.Rxf7 Rxf7 23.Nxf7 Nf5 24.g4 Nxe3 25.Nxe3 bxc3 26.bxc3 Rb3 27.Nd1 Ne7 28.Nd6 Nd5 leaves us still fighting.

2014-02-16, 11:23	#21
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	With just over 24 hours to the deadline, is it time for us all to state our currently preferred move? Mine is now: 20...Rf8

2014-02-16, 11:34	#22
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 1001001001101₂ Posts	Yes, 20...Rf8, gets my vote because it gives us a fighting chance. :smile: