Move 20

paulunderwood · 2014-02-10, 17:46

Well I guess our reply is 20.Ne4 O-O :smile:

Brian-E · 2014-02-11, 00:24

Unfortunately if 20...O-O they can play 21.Nf6+ Bxf6 (21...Kh8 22.Nd7) 22.exf6 Nd5 23.Bxh6.

Perhaps we're going to have to play the grovelling move 20...Nd8 to defend f7 against Nd6+? I don't see anything else at the moment.

Brian-E · 2014-02-11, 00:32

The line 20...Nd8 21.Nd6+ Kf8 22.Nf2 (intending Nfe4) Nf5 23.Nxf5 gxf5 doesn't look too disastrous for us.

richs · 2014-02-11, 04:28

David was prescient:

19...Ba6 20.Ne4 Nd5 21.Nd6+
Is not a good position for example.

I will examine further. Laurv made a comment that Cheesehead had done quite an analysis a couple of moves back so I think we have to be very careful.

Brian-E · 2014-02-12, 11:07

So what are people currently thinking?

Is it indeed so that the only move which doesn't lose material is 20...Nd8? And if so is there any way of playing a more active line which sacrifices material such as a pawn but gets compensation? I cannot find anything at the moment.

henryzz · 2014-02-12, 14:02

Can't really see anything that looks good.
19...Ba6 20.Ne4 Nd8 21.Nc5 Bc8 22.cxb4 axb4 23.Rc1

Brian-E · 2014-02-12, 14:30

[QUOTE=henryzz;366746]Can't really see anything that looks good.
19...Ba6 20.Ne4 Nd8 21.Nc5 Bc8 22.cxb4 axb4 23.Rc1[/QUOTE]
Yes. That looks worse than the 20...O-O line. We're losing a pawn at least, I think.

EDIT: Okay, to make the best of it how about 20...O-O as Paul suggested, then 21.Nf6+ Bxf6 22.exf6 Nd5 23.Bxh6 Rfc8 still leaving us with some play on the queenside while white's knight and rooks are still uncoordinated?

paulunderwood · 2014-02-12, 20:30

Following your line with 24.Bg7 ?? 25.Bxd5 exd5 26.Rf4 with aim of getting onto the h file and so mating us.

It might be better with:
20...O-O
21.Nf6+ Bxf6
22.exf6 Nd5
23.Bxh6 Rfe8
24.Bf7 Nce7

:unsure:

Brian-E · 2014-02-12, 20:46

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;366783]Following your line with 24.Bg7 ?? 25.Bxd5 exd5 26.Rf4 with aim of getting onto the h file and so mating us.

It might be better with:
20...O-O
21.Nf6+ Bxf6
22.exf6 Nd5
23.Bxh6 Rfe8
24.Bf7 Nce7

:unsure:[/QUOTE]
You could also replace "??" in the line I gave with your move 24...Nce7, right, or is it different with the rook on c8 instead of e8?

Whatever, it's a miserable position, but that is unfortunately where we are at.

paulunderwood · 2014-02-12, 21:02

With the Rook on e8, if White takes our d knight with their Bishop, we can capture with our e Pawn, open up the e file for our Rook and have room for our a-Bishop to move to c8.

Brian-E · 2014-02-12, 21:35

Okay, that would be something to argue about at the time if we get that far.:smile:

A different idea which I can't for the moment refute: in David's line, does 20...Nd8 21.Nc5 Rb6 work as a means of trying to maintain material equality?
Edit: The idea being, if 22.Nxa6 Rxa6 23.cxb4 axb4 24.Rc1 would leave their a pawn en prise, and if White plays a quiet move we can play 22...b3 or 23...b3. For the moment I see no way for White to exploit the veiled attack on the b6 rook with the bishop: if 22.Ne4 Rb8 repeats moves. What can they do?

2014-02-10, 17:46	#1
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	Move 20 Well I guess our reply is 20.Ne4 O-O :smile:

2014-02-12, 14:30	#7
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;366746]Can't really see anything that looks good. 19...Ba6 20.Ne4 Nd8 21.Nc5 Bc8 22.cxb4 axb4 23.Rc1[/QUOTE] Yes. That looks worse than the 20...O-O line. We're losing a pawn at least, I think. EDIT: Okay, to make the best of it how about 20...O-O as Paul suggested, then 21.Nf6+ Bxf6 22.exf6 Nd5 23.Bxh6 Rfc8 still leaving us with some play on the queenside while white's knight and rooks are still uncoordinated? Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-02-12 at 14:41

2014-02-12, 21:02	#10
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 124D₁₆ Posts	With the Rook on e8, if White takes our d knight with their Bishop, we can capture with our e Pawn, open up the e file for our Rook and have room for our a-Bishop to move to c8. Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-02-12 at 21:06

2014-02-12, 21:35	#11
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Okay, that would be something to argue about at the time if we get that far.:smile: A different idea which I can't for the moment refute: in David's line, does 20...Nd8 21.Nc5 Rb6 work as a means of trying to maintain material equality? Edit: The idea being, if 22.Nxa6 Rxa6 23.cxb4 axb4 24.Rc1 would leave their a pawn en prise, and if White plays a quiet move we can play 22...b3 or 23...b3. For the moment I see no way for White to exploit the veiled attack on the b6 rook with the bishop: if 22.Ne4 Rb8 repeats moves. What can they do? Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-02-12 at 21:46

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Stockfish game: "Move 9 poll", not "move 2^74,207,281-1 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	1	2016-10-25 18:03
Stockfish game: "Move 8 poll", not "move 3.14159 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	5	2016-10-22 01:55
Stockfish game: "Move 5 poll", not "move 0 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	0	2016-10-05 15:50
Stockfish game: "Move 4 poll", not "move 100 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	0	2016-09-28 19:51
Stockfish game: "Move 2 poll", not "move 2 discussion"	MooMoo2	Other Chess Games	0	2016-09-19 19:56

2014-02-11, 00:24	#2
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Unfortunately if 20...O-O they can play 21.Nf6+ Bxf6 (21...Kh8 22.Nd7) 22.exf6 Nd5 23.Bxh6. Perhaps we're going to have to play the grovelling move 20...Nd8 to defend f7 against Nd6+? I don't see anything else at the moment.

2014-02-11, 00:32	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	The line 20...Nd8 21.Nd6+ Kf8 22.Nf2 (intending Nfe4) Nf5 23.Nxf5 gxf5 doesn't look too disastrous for us.

2014-02-11, 04:28	#4
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	David was prescient: 19...Ba6 20.Ne4 Nd5 21.Nd6+ Is not a good position for example. I will examine further. Laurv made a comment that Cheesehead had done quite an analysis a couple of moves back so I think we have to be very careful.

2014-02-12, 11:07	#5
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	So what are people currently thinking? Is it indeed so that the only move which doesn't lose material is 20...Nd8? And if so is there any way of playing a more active line which sacrifices material such as a pawn but gets compensation? I cannot find anything at the moment.

2014-02-12, 14:02	#6
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	Can't really see anything that looks good. 19...Ba6 20.Ne4 Nd8 21.Nc5 Bc8 22.cxb4 axb4 23.Rc1

2014-02-12, 20:30	#8
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 4685₁₀ Posts	Following your line with 24.Bg7 ?? 25.Bxd5 exd5 26.Rf4 with aim of getting onto the h file and so mating us. It might be better with: 20...O-O 21.Nf6+ Bxf6 22.exf6 Nd5 23.Bxh6 Rfe8 24.Bf7 Nce7 :unsure:

2014-02-12, 20:46	#9
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;366783]Following your line with 24.Bg7 ?? 25.Bxd5 exd5 26.Rf4 with aim of getting onto the h file and so mating us. It might be better with: 20...O-O 21.Nf6+ Bxf6 22.exf6 Nd5 23.Bxh6 Rfe8 24.Bf7 Nce7 :unsure:[/QUOTE] You could also replace "??" in the line I gave with your move 24...Nce7, right, or is it different with the rook on c8 instead of e8? Whatever, it's a miserable position, but that is unfortunately where we are at.