Move 19

paulunderwood · 2014-01-28, 13:49

I think we have 2 options 19.Nd2 bxc3 or 19.Nd2 Ba6 (defending our c pawn.) At the moment I think the latter is safer. :smile:

Edit: having said that, keeping our Knight on c6 protected by our Bishop, in order to free up maneuvors by our other knight might be important.

Brian-E · 2014-01-28, 14:39

Yes, I agree that 19...Ba6 and 19...bxc3 are the only two reasonable moves given that our c pawn is attacked.

I much prefer 19...Ba6 at the moment. Playing ...bxc3 resolves the tension on the queenside prematurely in my opinion. We should, I think, aim to put the pressure on with ...Nd5, ...O-O, and then probably doubling rooks on the b file before exchanging. This also leaves the option open of later playing ...b3 instead (isolating their a pawn which can then be attacked with bishop and knight), and while that is probably not the way forward it is still worth keeping the option open. If [I]they[/I] should break the tension by exchanging cxb4, then I think we get great play with the recapture ...axb4 with a mobile pawn front on the queenside. (...Nxb4 might be good instead there under some circumstances.)

19...Ba6 does indeed leave the knight on c6 requiring protection if the other knight moves somewhere other than d5, as Paul points out, but I think that's easily arranged.

henryzz · 2014-01-28, 18:18

I came to that conclusion as well.
O-O isn't bad unless they respond Rf2.

Brian-E · 2014-01-28, 19:18

[QUOTE=henryzz;365541]I came to that conclusion as well.
O-O isn't bad unless they respond Rf2.[/QUOTE]
I must admit I failed to notice that possibility entirely. But I agree: 19...O-O 20.Rf2 Ba6 21.Bf1 is dreadful.

richs · 2014-01-29, 01:03

Here's (once again) the line that I looked at in move 17:

19. Nd2 bxc3
20. Nxc3 O-O
21. Nb5 Ba6
22. Nxc4 Bxb5
23. axb5 Rxb5

I know, Brian, that you preferred not resolving the queenside tension too early, but I think we should look some at this line too.

Brian-E · 2014-01-29, 09:46

[QUOTE=richs;365577]Here's (once again) the line that I looked at in move 17:

19. Nd2 bxc3
20. Nxc3 O-O
21. Nb5 Ba6
22. Nxc4 Bxb5
23. axb5 Rxb5

I know, Brian, that you preferred not resolving the queenside tension too early, but I think we should look some at this line too.[/QUOTE]
Yes, of course we should look at this alternative. I was only expressing my preference at the time, and as always I alter my views in the light of what you and the other team members contribute.

My feeling on 19...bxc3 is that they will eventually round up our weak c pawn and we have no real queenside threats to compensate. Instead of 21.Nb5 in your line, how about a strategy for White like (19....bxc3 20.Nxc3 O-O) 21.Rfb1 Nd5 22.Bf2 Ba6 23.Bf1 Nb6 24.Rc1 followed by Nce4 (if 24...Nd5 25.Rab1). It seems to me that they protect their b pawn adequately before rounding up our c pawn (and manoeuvring a knight to d6 which they are going to do anyway).

paulunderwood · 2014-01-31, 02:02

More about 19...Ba6. If we castle, defend c4 and move b3, I think we can muddle through, maybe keeping the White's knight on d1 blocked. :smile:

paulunderwood · 2014-01-31, 05:57

Here is another line:

19...bxc3
20.Nxc3 Nb4 (threatening fork on c3)
21.Rf1c1 Bxg2
22.Kxg2 Nd5
23.Bg1 Nd3

:smile:

Brian-E · 2014-01-31, 09:13

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;365725]More about 19...Ba6. If we castle, defend c4 and move b3, I think we can muddle through, maybe keeping the White's knight on d1 blocked. :smile:[/QUOTE]
Yes, the awkward white knight on d1 is an important feature of the position i.m.o. It's one good reason why I dislike 19...bxc3 now since that resolves this problem for White at a stroke.

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;365738]Here is another line:

19...bxc3
20.Nxc3 Nb4 (threatening fork on c3)
21.Rf1c1 Bxg2
22.Kxg2 Nd5
23.Bg1 Nd3

:smile:[/QUOTE]
What if simply (19...bxc3 20.Nxc3 Nb4 21.Rfc1 Bxg2 22.Kxg2 Ned5) 23.Nxc4 here?

paulunderwood · 2014-01-31, 17:06

With more study, I am favour 19...Ba6 followed by Nd5, as Brian said earlier in post #2. :smile:

henryzz · 2014-02-01, 04:04

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;365763]With more study, I am favour 19...Ba6 followed by Nd5, as Brian said earlier in post #2. :smile:[/QUOTE]
I think possibly O-O next rather than Nd5 but Ba6 is my preferred move.

2014-01-28, 13:49	#1
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	Move 19 I think we have 2 options 19.Nd2 bxc3 or 19.Nd2 Ba6 (defending our c pawn.) At the moment I think the latter is safer. :smile: Edit: having said that, keeping our Knight on c6 protected by our Bishop, in order to free up maneuvors by our other knight might be important. Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-01-28 at 14:09

2014-01-31, 02:02	#7
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 11115₈ Posts	More about 19...Ba6. If we castle, defend c4 and move b3, I think we can muddle through, maybe keeping the White's knight on d1 blocked. :smile: Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-01-31 at 02:03

2014-01-31, 05:57	#8
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	Here is another line: 19...bxc3 20.Nxc3 Nb4 (threatening fork on c3) 21.Rf1c1 Bxg2 22.Kxg2 Nd5 23.Bg1 Nd3 :smile: Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2014-01-31 at 05:57

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2014-01-28, 14:39	#2
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	Yes, I agree that 19...Ba6 and 19...bxc3 are the only two reasonable moves given that our c pawn is attacked. I much prefer 19...Ba6 at the moment. Playing ...bxc3 resolves the tension on the queenside prematurely in my opinion. We should, I think, aim to put the pressure on with ...Nd5, ...O-O, and then probably doubling rooks on the b file before exchanging. This also leaves the option open of later playing ...b3 instead (isolating their a pawn which can then be attacked with bishop and knight), and while that is probably not the way forward it is still worth keeping the option open. If [I]they[/I] should break the tension by exchanging cxb4, then I think we get great play with the recapture ...axb4 with a mobile pawn front on the queenside. (...Nxb4 might be good instead there under some circumstances.) 19...Ba6 does indeed leave the knight on c6 requiring protection if the other knight moves somewhere other than d5, as Paul points out, but I think that's easily arranged.

2014-01-28, 18:18	#3
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	I came to that conclusion as well. O-O isn't bad unless they respond Rf2.

2014-01-28, 19:18	#4
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;365541]I came to that conclusion as well. O-O isn't bad unless they respond Rf2.[/QUOTE] I must admit I failed to notice that possibility entirely. But I agree: 19...O-O 20.Rf2 Ba6 21.Bf1 is dreadful.

2014-01-29, 01:03	#5
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	Here's (once again) the line that I looked at in move 17: 19. Nd2 bxc3 20. Nxc3 O-O 21. Nb5 Ba6 22. Nxc4 Bxb5 23. axb5 Rxb5 I know, Brian, that you preferred not resolving the queenside tension too early, but I think we should look some at this line too.

2014-01-29, 09:46	#6
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;365577]Here's (once again) the line that I looked at in move 17: 19. Nd2 bxc3 20. Nxc3 O-O 21. Nb5 Ba6 22. Nxc4 Bxb5 23. axb5 Rxb5 I know, Brian, that you preferred not resolving the queenside tension too early, but I think we should look some at this line too.[/QUOTE] Yes, of course we should look at this alternative. I was only expressing my preference at the time, and as always I alter my views in the light of what you and the other team members contribute. My feeling on 19...bxc3 is that they will eventually round up our weak c pawn and we have no real queenside threats to compensate. Instead of 21.Nb5 in your line, how about a strategy for White like (19....bxc3 20.Nxc3 O-O) 21.Rfb1 Nd5 22.Bf2 Ba6 23.Bf1 Nb6 24.Rc1 followed by Nce4 (if 24...Nd5 25.Rab1). It seems to me that they protect their b pawn adequately before rounding up our c pawn (and manoeuvring a knight to d6 which they are going to do anyway).

2014-01-31, 09:13	#9
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;365725]More about 19...Ba6. If we castle, defend c4 and move b3, I think we can muddle through, maybe keeping the White's knight on d1 blocked. :smile:[/QUOTE] Yes, the awkward white knight on d1 is an important feature of the position i.m.o. It's one good reason why I dislike 19...bxc3 now since that resolves this problem for White at a stroke. [QUOTE=paulunderwood;365738]Here is another line: 19...bxc3 20.Nxc3 Nb4 (threatening fork on c3) 21.Rf1c1 Bxg2 22.Kxg2 Nd5 23.Bg1 Nd3 :smile:[/QUOTE] What if simply (19...bxc3 20.Nxc3 Nb4 21.Rfc1 Bxg2 22.Kxg2 Ned5) 23.Nxc4 here?

2014-01-31, 17:06	#10
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 11115₈ Posts	With more study, I am favour 19...Ba6 followed by Nd5, as Brian said earlier in post #2. :smile:

2014-02-01, 04:04	#11
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 6141₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;365763]With more study, I am favour 19...Ba6 followed by Nd5, as Brian said earlier in post #2. :smile:[/QUOTE] I think possibly O-O next rather than Nd5 but Ba6 is my preferred move.