Move 17 - Page 3

paulunderwood · 2014-01-08, 11:04

I see. :smile:

henryzz · 2014-01-08, 14:18

[QUOTE=Brian-E;364065]Indeed, Rich, our collective input is vital. I think we have another rather critical move right now, and just under 48 hours to the deadline.

Paul, I think they'll play 19.Nd2 here. This knight is heading for e4 and the rook on f1 is now adding its scope too in the fight for the f6 square. They can then force Bf6 without losing a pawn.

Generally speaking, I don't want them to be able to exchange their bad dark squared bishop at all. I think that if they do, then we no longer have any claim to any positional advantage (if we have any now), and if after an exchange on f6 they recapture with their e pawn (now adequately protected) that could severely cramp us on the kingside.

I'm not certain about that. The pawn on f6 could ultimately turn out to be weak instead. But my gut feeling is negative about this possibility. And if we play 17...Nd5, and then if necessary ...h6, preventing Bg5, we can avoid it.[/QUOTE]
I think this post contains pretty good evidence for Nd5 being the better move assuming they respond Bg5. What if they respond Nd2? We could do with covering all the bases there if possible.

henryzz · 2014-01-08, 14:32

As far as I can see after 17...Nd5 18.Nd2 a likely move is 19.Ne4. What would we do here?

Brian-E · 2014-01-08, 16:31

[QUOTE=henryzz;364073]As far as I can see after 17...Nd5 18.Nd2 a likely move is 19.Ne4. What would we do here?[/QUOTE]
I think we can't avoid the knight coming in via e4 to d6, but we hang in there, make sure they don't get to exchange their bad bishop, and rely on our eventual counterplay with ...b4.

After 17...Nd5 18.Nd2 h6 (to prevent Bg5) 19.Ne4 Ke7 (not 19...O-O 20.Nf6+) 20.Nd6 Rhf8. We don't need to be afraid of 21.Nxb7 Rxb7 after which we're ready to double rooks on the b file and break through with ...b4. Or if 21.Bd2 (freeing the d1 knight) Ba6 22.Nf2 Rb6 23.Nfe4 Rfb8 we are similarly ready to play ...b4.

However, I'm worried now about 17...Nd5 [U]18.Ng5[/U] as you indicated before because this forces us to play either the backward, passive move 18...Nd8 or 18...O-O 19.Ne4 h6 (preventing Bg5) 20.Nf6+ achieving that position with their pawn on f6 after the exchange. Perhaps 19...f6 is better here, allowing them to exchange pawns on f6 and isolate our e pawn.

But perhaps that last paragraph is an argument for 17...h6 being the correct move, not 17...Nd5. Stop either knight or bishop getting to g5 once and for all. After 17...h6 18.Nd2 Nd5 19.Ne4 Ke7 we have transposed into the line in the second paragraph above, which I think is okay for us.

henryzz · 2014-01-08, 17:53

Just noticed that while they have a knight on d2 we can't do b4 as that leaves our pawn on c4 undefended.
If we do 17...h6 as in your last paragraph then 18.a4 b4 19.Nd2 bxc3 20.bxc3 Ba6 21.Ne4
Doesn't look too bad.

[quote]After 17...Nd5 18.Nd2 h6 (to prevent Bg5) 19.Ne4 Ke7 (not 19...O-O 20.Nf6+) 20.Nd6 Rhf8. We don't need to be afraid of 21.Nxb7 Rxb7 after which we're ready to double rooks on the b file and break through with ...b4. Or if 21.Bd2 (freeing the d1 knight) Ba6 22.Nf2 Rb6 23.Nfe4 Rfb8 we are similarly ready to play ...b4.[/quote]
What if 21.Bd2 Ba6 22.Ne3 Nxe3 23.Bxe3 ? We then have to move our knight on c6 which messes everything up.

Not sure about 17...Nd5 [U]18.Ng5
[/U]

richs · 2014-01-08, 19:43

I like an ounce of prevention preventing a pound of cure, i.e. 17... h6. Here's a potential line following h6:

17. ... h6
18. a4 b4
19. Nd2 bxc3
20. Nxc3 O-O
21. Nb5 Ba6
22. Nxc4 Bxb5
23. axb5 Rxb5

and things have quite opened up queenside.

paulunderwood · 2014-01-08, 20:35

Following Brian's line:
17...Nd5
18.Nd2 h6
19.Ne4 Ke7
20.Nd6 Rhf8
21.Bd2 Ba6
22.Nf2 Rb6
23.Nfe4

23...Rfb8 leaves f7 unprotected!

What about:
17...h6
18.Nd2 Nd8
19.Ne4 Nc8
?

Brian-E · 2014-01-08, 22:49

I pretty much agree with all suggestions above. The line I last posted does indeed fall foul to David's 22.Ne3, and Paul is correct that I left f7 en prise at the end - which means our rook is tied to the defence. The line is not good.

Rich's line looks OK to me at the moment. And I also see something in Paul's modest line 17...h6 18.Nd2 Nd8 19.Ne4 Nc8, defending the weak points to give us time to regroup.

My vote currently goes to 17...h6.

henryzz · 2014-01-09, 19:31

I think I agree with h6 for now. Now we need to find holes in that line :)

richs · 2014-01-09, 23:36

I am for 17...h6

We have to post by 10 January 0811 GMT which is about 8-1/2 hours from now. I can post before I go to bed (it's 1536 local currently) if you can't post, David.

henryzz · 2014-01-09, 23:45

[QUOTE=richs;364247]I am for 17...h6

We have to post by 10 January 0811 GMT which is about 8-1/2 hours from now. I can post before I go to bed (it's 1536 local currently) if you can't post, David.[/QUOTE]
I won't be awake by then so it would be useful. :smile:

2014-01-08, 16:31	#26
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;364073]As far as I can see after 17...Nd5 18.Nd2 a likely move is 19.Ne4. What would we do here?[/QUOTE] I think we can't avoid the knight coming in via e4 to d6, but we hang in there, make sure they don't get to exchange their bad bishop, and rely on our eventual counterplay with ...b4. After 17...Nd5 18.Nd2 h6 (to prevent Bg5) 19.Ne4 Ke7 (not 19...O-O 20.Nf6+) 20.Nd6 Rhf8. We don't need to be afraid of 21.Nxb7 Rxb7 after which we're ready to double rooks on the b file and break through with ...b4. Or if 21.Bd2 (freeing the d1 knight) Ba6 22.Nf2 Rb6 23.Nfe4 Rfb8 we are similarly ready to play ...b4. However, I'm worried now about 17...Nd5 [U]18.Ng5[/U] as you indicated before because this forces us to play either the backward, passive move 18...Nd8 or 18...O-O 19.Ne4 h6 (preventing Bg5) 20.Nf6+ achieving that position with their pawn on f6 after the exchange. Perhaps 19...f6 is better here, allowing them to exchange pawns on f6 and isolate our e pawn. But perhaps that last paragraph is an argument for 17...h6 being the correct move, not 17...Nd5. Stop either knight or bishop getting to g5 once and for all. After 17...h6 18.Nd2 Nd5 19.Ne4 Ke7 we have transposed into the line in the second paragraph above, which I think is okay for us. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-01-08 at 16:43 Reason: some additions

2014-01-09, 23:36	#32
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 1718₁₀ Posts	I am for 17...h6 We have to post by 10 January 0811 GMT which is about 8-1/2 hours from now. I can post before I go to bed (it's 1536 local currently) if you can't post, David. Last fiddled with by richs on 2014-01-09 at 23:37 Reason: typo

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2014-01-08, 11:04	#23
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	I see. :smile:

2014-01-08, 14:18	#24
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;364065]Indeed, Rich, our collective input is vital. I think we have another rather critical move right now, and just under 48 hours to the deadline. Paul, I think they'll play 19.Nd2 here. This knight is heading for e4 and the rook on f1 is now adding its scope too in the fight for the f6 square. They can then force Bf6 without losing a pawn. Generally speaking, I don't want them to be able to exchange their bad dark squared bishop at all. I think that if they do, then we no longer have any claim to any positional advantage (if we have any now), and if after an exchange on f6 they recapture with their e pawn (now adequately protected) that could severely cramp us on the kingside. I'm not certain about that. The pawn on f6 could ultimately turn out to be weak instead. But my gut feeling is negative about this possibility. And if we play 17...Nd5, and then if necessary ...h6, preventing Bg5, we can avoid it.[/QUOTE] I think this post contains pretty good evidence for Nd5 being the better move assuming they respond Bg5. What if they respond Nd2? We could do with covering all the bases there if possible.

2014-01-08, 14:32	#25
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 13775₈ Posts	As far as I can see after 17...Nd5 18.Nd2 a likely move is 19.Ne4. What would we do here?

2014-01-08, 17:53	#27
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	Just noticed that while they have a knight on d2 we can't do b4 as that leaves our pawn on c4 undefended. If we do 17...h6 as in your last paragraph then 18.a4 b4 19.Nd2 bxc3 20.bxc3 Ba6 21.Ne4 Doesn't look too bad. [quote]After 17...Nd5 18.Nd2 h6 (to prevent Bg5) 19.Ne4 Ke7 (not 19...O-O 20.Nf6+) 20.Nd6 Rhf8. We don't need to be afraid of 21.Nxb7 Rxb7 after which we're ready to double rooks on the b file and break through with ...b4. Or if 21.Bd2 (freeing the d1 knight) Ba6 22.Nf2 Rb6 23.Nfe4 Rfb8 we are similarly ready to play ...b4.[/quote] What if 21.Bd2 Ba6 22.Ne3 Nxe3 23.Bxe3 ? We then have to move our knight on c6 which messes everything up. Not sure about 17...Nd5 [U]18.Ng5 [/U]

2014-01-08, 19:43	#28
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 6B6₁₆ Posts	I like an ounce of prevention preventing a pound of cure, i.e. 17... h6. Here's a potential line following h6: 17. ... h6 18. a4 b4 19. Nd2 bxc3 20. Nxc3 O-O 21. Nb5 Ba6 22. Nxc4 Bxb5 23. axb5 Rxb5 and things have quite opened up queenside.

2014-01-08, 20:35	#29
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	Following Brian's line: 17...Nd5 18.Nd2 h6 19.Ne4 Ke7 20.Nd6 Rhf8 21.Bd2 Ba6 22.Nf2 Rb6 23.Nfe4 23...Rfb8 leaves f7 unprotected! What about: 17...h6 18.Nd2 Nd8 19.Ne4 Nc8 ?

2014-01-08, 22:49	#30
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	I pretty much agree with all suggestions above. The line I last posted does indeed fall foul to David's 22.Ne3, and Paul is correct that I left f7 en prise at the end - which means our rook is tied to the defence. The line is not good. Rich's line looks OK to me at the moment. And I also see something in Paul's modest line 17...h6 18.Nd2 Nd8 19.Ne4 Nc8, defending the weak points to give us time to regroup. My vote currently goes to 17...h6.

2014-01-09, 19:31	#31
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	I think I agree with h6 for now. Now we need to find holes in that line :)

2014-01-09, 23:45	#33
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;364247]I am for 17...h6 We have to post by 10 January 0811 GMT which is about 8-1/2 hours from now. I can post before I go to bed (it's 1536 local currently) if you can't post, David.[/QUOTE] I won't be awake by then so it would be useful. :smile: