Move 17 - Page 2

Brian-E · 2014-01-04, 09:05

[QUOTE=richs;363771]Here's a line with castling followed by them playing a4:

17. ... O-O
18. a4 b4
19. cxb4 Nxb4
20. Rc1 Bd5

and we are in good shape.[/QUOTE]
Yes. But what do you think about the immediate reply 18.Bg5 here, Rich? And do you think the immediate move 17...O-O is necessary in your line, or do you think the position following 17...Nd5 (preventing their Bg5 which now just loses time) 18.a4 b4 is as good for us as the line you give?

richs · 2014-01-04, 19:44

I wanted to explore O-O although I prefer Nd5, and I've been looking at alternatives that white may play to O-O. I'll continue examing the position this weekend since we have extra time this move.

henryzz · 2014-01-05, 00:39

Has anyone ever looked at them doing Ng5? Probably after O-O

Brian-E · 2014-01-05, 10:28

[QUOTE=henryzz;363836]Has anyone ever looked at them doing Ng5? Probably after O-O[/QUOTE]
I see that as another route to e4. It will force ...O-O if we haven't played that already, but we want to castle at some point anyway. We can prevent it with 17...h6, but they still have the alternative route via d2. And in general I think we can't prevent a knight manoeuvre to e4. So we need to organise our counterplay before such a knight manoeuvre causes us trouble.

Did you have any other idea behind their move Ng5 than the above?

Brian-E · 2014-01-05, 20:33

Does anyone think 17...f5 might be worth considering? The point, of course, is to remove the square e4 from them or, if they reply 18.exf6, to blunt the effect of a white knight on e4 by regaining control of the squares d6 and f6.

The disadvantages, I think, are (1) a weak e pawn for us, and (2) we allow them to increase the scope of their currently "bad" e3 bishop.

Another move is 17...f6 which achieves the same thing but avoids lines where they leave our f pawn on f5.

Brian-E · 2014-01-07, 10:01

I don't now really think 17...f5 (or 17...f6) are playable. 18.exf6 Bxf6 19.Ng5 Bxg5 20.Bxg5 is to our opponents' advantage. Their bishop pair and play with rooks on the e and f files will make itself felt in this more open position.

My current preferred move, with 3 days before we must move, is 17...Nd5. What do others think?

paulunderwood · 2014-01-07, 10:31

I prefer O-O, although with Nd5 we hassle their bishop on e3. :smile:

Brian-E · 2014-01-08, 00:12

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;363993]I prefer O-O, although with Nd5 we hassle their bishop on e3. :smile:[/QUOTE]
How do you intend to meet 17...O-O 18.Bg5 (intending Bf6), Paul?

paulunderwood · 2014-01-08, 02:41

17...O-O
18.Bg5 Nd5
19.Bf6

Then 19...Nxf6 or 19...Bxf6 :smile:

richs · 2014-01-08, 05:10

I apologize that I have been quiet the past few days but work has interfered. Tomorrow I will spend some quality time looking at Brian's question in post 12 and Paul's line in post 20.

David, I know exams are coming but your input is vital also on this move.

Thanks, guys....

Brian-E · 2014-01-08, 10:53

Indeed, Rich, our collective input is vital. I think we have another rather critical move right now, and just under 48 hours to the deadline.
[QUOTE=paulunderwood;364049]17...O-O
18.Bg5 Nd5
19.Bf6

Then 19...Nxf6 or 19...Bxf6 :smile:[/QUOTE]
Paul, I think they'll play 19.Nd2 here. This knight is heading for e4 and the rook on f1 is now adding its scope too in the fight for the f6 square. They can then force Bf6 without losing a pawn.

Generally speaking, I don't want them to be able to exchange their bad dark squared bishop at all. I think that if they do, then we no longer have any claim to any positional advantage (if we have any now), and if after an exchange on f6 they recapture with their e pawn (now adequately protected) that could severely cramp us on the kingside.

I'm not certain about that. The pawn on f6 could ultimately turn out to be weak instead. But my gut feeling is negative about this possibility. And if we play 17...Nd5, and then if necessary ...h6, preventing Bg5, we can avoid it.

2014-01-05, 20:33	#16
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands CCE₁₆ Posts	Does anyone think 17...f5 might be worth considering? The point, of course, is to remove the square e4 from them or, if they reply 18.exf6, to blunt the effect of a white knight on e4 by regaining control of the squares d6 and f6. The disadvantages, I think, are (1) a weak e pawn for us, and (2) we allow them to increase the scope of their currently "bad" e3 bishop. Another move is 17...f6 which achieves the same thing but avoids lines where they leave our f pawn on f5. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-01-05 at 20:36 Reason: 17...f6 possibility

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2014-01-04, 09:05	#12
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;363771]Here's a line with castling followed by them playing a4: 17. ... O-O 18. a4 b4 19. cxb4 Nxb4 20. Rc1 Bd5 and we are in good shape.[/QUOTE] Yes. But what do you think about the immediate reply 18.Bg5 here, Rich? And do you think the immediate move 17...O-O is necessary in your line, or do you think the position following 17...Nd5 (preventing their Bg5 which now just loses time) 18.a4 b4 is as good for us as the line you give?

2014-01-04, 19:44	#13
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	I wanted to explore O-O although I prefer Nd5, and I've been looking at alternatives that white may play to O-O. I'll continue examing the position this weekend since we have extra time this move.

2014-01-05, 00:39	#14
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	Has anyone ever looked at them doing Ng5? Probably after O-O

2014-01-05, 10:28	#15
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;363836]Has anyone ever looked at them doing Ng5? Probably after O-O[/QUOTE] I see that as another route to e4. It will force ...O-O if we haven't played that already, but we want to castle at some point anyway. We can prevent it with 17...h6, but they still have the alternative route via d2. And in general I think we can't prevent a knight manoeuvre to e4. So we need to organise our counterplay before such a knight manoeuvre causes us trouble. Did you have any other idea behind their move Ng5 than the above?

2014-01-07, 10:01	#17
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	I don't now really think 17...f5 (or 17...f6) are playable. 18.exf6 Bxf6 19.Ng5 Bxg5 20.Bxg5 is to our opponents' advantage. Their bishop pair and play with rooks on the e and f files will make itself felt in this more open position. My current preferred move, with 3 days before we must move, is 17...Nd5. What do others think?

2014-01-07, 10:31	#18
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	I prefer O-O, although with Nd5 we hassle their bishop on e3. :smile:

2014-01-08, 00:12	#19
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;363993]I prefer O-O, although with Nd5 we hassle their bishop on e3. :smile:[/QUOTE] How do you intend to meet 17...O-O 18.Bg5 (intending Bf6), Paul?

2014-01-08, 02:41	#20
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Bf6 Then 19...Nxf6 or 19...Bxf6 :smile:

2014-01-08, 05:10	#21
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	I apologize that I have been quiet the past few days but work has interfered. Tomorrow I will spend some quality time looking at Brian's question in post 12 and Paul's line in post 20. David, I know exams are coming but your input is vital also on this move. Thanks, guys....

2014-01-08, 10:53	#22
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Indeed, Rich, our collective input is vital. I think we have another rather critical move right now, and just under 48 hours to the deadline. [QUOTE=paulunderwood;364049]17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Bf6 Then 19...Nxf6 or 19...Bxf6 :smile:[/QUOTE] Paul, I think they'll play 19.Nd2 here. This knight is heading for e4 and the rook on f1 is now adding its scope too in the fight for the f6 square. They can then force Bf6 without losing a pawn. Generally speaking, I don't want them to be able to exchange their bad dark squared bishop at all. I think that if they do, then we no longer have any claim to any positional advantage (if we have any now), and if after an exchange on f6 they recapture with their e pawn (now adequately protected) that could severely cramp us on the kingside. I'm not certain about that. The pawn on f6 could ultimately turn out to be weak instead. But my gut feeling is negative about this possibility. And if we play 17...Nd5, and then if necessary ...h6, preventing Bg5, we can avoid it.