Move 17

Brian-E · 2014-01-02, 09:46

Wow, this is a huge surprise! They've closed the position with 17.d4. I'd love to know what they found in the lines where they play their bishop to c5: the complications were pretty unclear.

To my thinking, they've gone for a much simpler set-up in which we have a slight but clear edge. Their e3 bishop is now "bad", we have the superb square d5 which they cannot contest, and we can aim for the move ...b4 after suitable preparation (though they may force our hand with that at some point by playing a4).

Some candidate moves for now:

17...Nd5
17...O-O
17...h6

Perhaps 17...h6 is in fact necessary immediately? We probably don't want them to be able to play Be3-g5-f6.

EDIT: Their plan, I'm guessing, is to manoeuvre a knight to e4 (for example Nd1-f2-e4), supported by the other knight so that if we exchange it with our b7 bishop their other knight replaces it, from where they control or occupy the squares f6. d6 and c5. So perhaps I was being too optimistic earlier. In any case, it's not a position where we can afford to sit around. Our resources need to make themselves felt before theirs do.

paulunderwood · 2014-01-02, 15:31

At this early day, I'd say 17...h6 is good to stop 18. Bg5, followed by O-O. :smile:

henryzz · 2014-01-02, 23:22

17...Nd5 18. Bg5 h6 19. Bf6 Nxf6 20. exf6 Bxf6
I can't see how to maneuver their knights like Brian is suggesting after this.

Brian-E · 2014-01-03, 11:02

[QUOTE=henryzz;363630]17...Nd5 18. Bg5 h6 19. Bf6 Nxf6 20. exf6 Bxf6
I can't see how to maneuver their knights like Brian is suggesting after this.[/QUOTE]
Yes, this shows that 17...h6 is not a necessary move right now (though still not a bad one). I like 17...Nd5 at the moment because they will have to regroup to manoeuvre the knights, and that will take valuable time giving us a chance to press on with our queenside initiative. Since the knight on d1 is now tied to defending the bishop, they might have to play an awkward move like 18.Re1 (their rook is much better on the f file) or 18.Bf4 or 18.Bc1 before being able to continue with Nf2, Nd2, and finally N(either)e4.

Brian-E · 2014-01-03, 11:10

Having said that, we should also note that if we play 17...Nd5 then this knight is no longer in position to go to c8 (or f5) to counter one of their knights manoeuvring to d6.

Then again, our other knight can move via d7 to perform this functino if necessary.

richs · 2014-01-03, 15:41

I reread our Move 16 thread last night and partially again this morning. In my post 13 in that thread I thought that white would play 17. dxc4 and all of our analysis after that post was based on that move.

We looked at 17... h6, O-O, and Nd5 in our earlier posts in that thread.

I want to look more closely at O-O and Nd5 to see the trade-offs.

Brian-E · 2014-01-03, 17:09

[QUOTE=richs;363709]I want to look more closely at O-O and Nd5 to see the trade-offs.[/QUOTE]
Both ...Nd5 and ...O-O seem to me to be desirable moves for us to play shortly, but an important difference between 17...Nd5 and 17...O-O is that the latter allows them to play 18.Bg5 threatening Bf6. 17...Nd5 18.Bg5? h6 loses time or a pawn for white as in David's line. 17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Nd2 f5 20.exf6 Nxf6 21.Bf4 is a line where the advantage has definitely passed to our opponents, I think. Allowing them to play Bf6 with 17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Nd2 h6 20.Bf6 is not too clear to me. They get rid of their bad dark squared bishop and the pawn which arrives on f6 after an exchange (if we don't exchange they play Ne4) will cramp us, but that pawn on f6 could be weak ultimately. I don't know yet.

17...Nd5 now and castling later, maybe after a later ...h6, avoids all this.

henryzz · 2014-01-03, 17:28

[QUOTE=Brian-E;363720]Both ...Nd5 and ...O-O seem to me to be desirable moves for us to play shortly, but an important difference between 17...Nd5 and 17...O-O is that the latter allows them to play 18.Bg5 threatening Bf6. 17...Nd5 18.Bg5? h6 loses time or a pawn for white as in David's line. 17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Nd2 f5 20.exf6 Nxf6 21.Bf4 is a line where the advantage has definitely passed to our opponents, I think. Allowing them to play Bf6 with 17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Nd2 h6 20.Bf6 is not too clear to me. They get rid of their bad dark squared bishop and the pawn which arrives on f6 after an exchange (if we don't exchange they play Ne4) will cramp us, but that pawn on f6 could be weak ultimately. I don't know yet.

17...Nd5 now and castling later, maybe after a later ...h6, avoids all this.[/QUOTE]
After 17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Nd2 h6 20.Bf6
I don't know what you mean about the pawn on f6 only possibly being weak.
I see
20...Nxf6 exf6 21. Bxf6 or 20...Bxf6 exf6 21. Nxf6

Brian-E · 2014-01-03, 18:28

[QUOTE=henryzz;363722]After 17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Nd2 h6 20.Bf6
I don't know what you mean about the pawn on f6 only possibly being weak.
I see
20...Nxf6 exf6 21. Bxf6 or 20...Bxf6 exf6 21. Nxf6[/QUOTE]
Isn't the rook on f1 defending f6. Or is this another of your concealed tactical tricks for us to find?:smile:

henryzz · 2014-01-03, 20:01

[QUOTE=Brian-E;363725]Isn't the rook on f1 defending f6. Or is this another of your concealed tactical tricks for us to find?:smile:[/QUOTE]
I read it 19.Nf2 not 19.Nd2 and then copied yours. Sorry. Helps if you make the correct moves on your board :smile:

richs · 2014-01-04, 00:27

Here's a line with castling followed by them playing a4:

17. ... O-O
18. a4 b4
19. cxb4 Nxb4
20. Rc1 Bd5

and we are in good shape.

2014-01-02, 09:46	#1
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Move 17 Wow, this is a huge surprise! They've closed the position with 17.d4. I'd love to know what they found in the lines where they play their bishop to c5: the complications were pretty unclear. To my thinking, they've gone for a much simpler set-up in which we have a slight but clear edge. Their e3 bishop is now "bad", we have the superb square d5 which they cannot contest, and we can aim for the move ...b4 after suitable preparation (though they may force our hand with that at some point by playing a4). Some candidate moves for now: 17...Nd5 17...O-O 17...h6 Perhaps 17...h6 is in fact necessary immediately? We probably don't want them to be able to play Be3-g5-f6. EDIT: Their plan, I'm guessing, is to manoeuvre a knight to e4 (for example Nd1-f2-e4), supported by the other knight so that if we exchange it with our b7 bishop their other knight replaces it, from where they control or occupy the squares f6. d6 and c5. So perhaps I was being too optimistic earlier. In any case, it's not a position where we can afford to sit around. Our resources need to make themselves felt before theirs do. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2014-01-02 at 10:11

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2014-01-02, 15:31	#2
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	At this early day, I'd say 17...h6 is good to stop 18. Bg5, followed by O-O. :smile:

2014-01-02, 23:22	#3
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	17...Nd5 18. Bg5 h6 19. Bf6 Nxf6 20. exf6 Bxf6 I can't see how to maneuver their knights like Brian is suggesting after this.

2014-01-03, 11:02	#4
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;363630]17...Nd5 18. Bg5 h6 19. Bf6 Nxf6 20. exf6 Bxf6 I can't see how to maneuver their knights like Brian is suggesting after this.[/QUOTE] Yes, this shows that 17...h6 is not a necessary move right now (though still not a bad one). I like 17...Nd5 at the moment because they will have to regroup to manoeuvre the knights, and that will take valuable time giving us a chance to press on with our queenside initiative. Since the knight on d1 is now tied to defending the bishop, they might have to play an awkward move like 18.Re1 (their rook is much better on the f file) or 18.Bf4 or 18.Bc1 before being able to continue with Nf2, Nd2, and finally N(either)e4.

2014-01-03, 11:10	#5
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	Having said that, we should also note that if we play 17...Nd5 then this knight is no longer in position to go to c8 (or f5) to counter one of their knights manoeuvring to d6. Then again, our other knight can move via d7 to perform this functino if necessary.

2014-01-03, 15:41	#6
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	I reread our Move 16 thread last night and partially again this morning. In my post 13 in that thread I thought that white would play 17. dxc4 and all of our analysis after that post was based on that move. We looked at 17... h6, O-O, and Nd5 in our earlier posts in that thread. I want to look more closely at O-O and Nd5 to see the trade-offs.

2014-01-03, 17:09	#7
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;363709]I want to look more closely at O-O and Nd5 to see the trade-offs.[/QUOTE] Both ...Nd5 and ...O-O seem to me to be desirable moves for us to play shortly, but an important difference between 17...Nd5 and 17...O-O is that the latter allows them to play 18.Bg5 threatening Bf6. 17...Nd5 18.Bg5? h6 loses time or a pawn for white as in David's line. 17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Nd2 f5 20.exf6 Nxf6 21.Bf4 is a line where the advantage has definitely passed to our opponents, I think. Allowing them to play Bf6 with 17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Nd2 h6 20.Bf6 is not too clear to me. They get rid of their bad dark squared bishop and the pawn which arrives on f6 after an exchange (if we don't exchange they play Ne4) will cramp us, but that pawn on f6 could be weak ultimately. I don't know yet. 17...Nd5 now and castling later, maybe after a later ...h6, avoids all this.

2014-01-03, 17:28	#8
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;363720]Both ...Nd5 and ...O-O seem to me to be desirable moves for us to play shortly, but an important difference between 17...Nd5 and 17...O-O is that the latter allows them to play 18.Bg5 threatening Bf6. 17...Nd5 18.Bg5? h6 loses time or a pawn for white as in David's line. 17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Nd2 f5 20.exf6 Nxf6 21.Bf4 is a line where the advantage has definitely passed to our opponents, I think. Allowing them to play Bf6 with 17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Nd2 h6 20.Bf6 is not too clear to me. They get rid of their bad dark squared bishop and the pawn which arrives on f6 after an exchange (if we don't exchange they play Ne4) will cramp us, but that pawn on f6 could be weak ultimately. I don't know yet. 17...Nd5 now and castling later, maybe after a later ...h6, avoids all this.[/QUOTE] After 17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Nd2 h6 20.Bf6 I don't know what you mean about the pawn on f6 only possibly being weak. I see 20...Nxf6 exf6 21. Bxf6 or 20...Bxf6 exf6 21. Nxf6

2014-01-03, 18:28	#9
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;363722]After 17...O-O 18.Bg5 Nd5 19.Nd2 h6 20.Bf6 I don't know what you mean about the pawn on f6 only possibly being weak. I see 20...Nxf6 exf6 21. Bxf6 or 20...Bxf6 exf6 21. Nxf6[/QUOTE] Isn't the rook on f1 defending f6. Or is this another of your concealed tactical tricks for us to find?:smile:

2014-01-03, 20:01	#10
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 6141₁₀ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;363725]Isn't the rook on f1 defending f6. Or is this another of your concealed tactical tricks for us to find?:smile:[/QUOTE] I read it 19.Nf2 not 19.Nd2 and then copied yours. Sorry. Helps if you make the correct moves on your board :smile:

2014-01-04, 00:27	#11
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 11010110110₂ Posts	Here's a line with castling followed by them playing a4: 17. ... O-O 18. a4 b4 19. cxb4 Nxb4 20. Rc1 Bd5 and we are in good shape.