Move 16 - Page 5

richs · 2013-12-12, 06:04

Brian, in post #39, you mention David's ingenuity for us to come out of the the Be3-c5-d6 bishop fork. Which post of David's is that?

Sorry, I was slammed at work today and was not able to follow our discussions today.

Brian-E · 2013-12-12, 09:38

[QUOTE=richs;361863]Brian, in post #39, you mention David's ingenuity for us to come out of the the Be3-c5-d6 bishop fork. Which post of David's is that?

Sorry, I was slammed at work today and was not able to follow our discussions today.[/QUOTE]
In post #16 he mentions the move 20...Bxg2 in response to one of the lines you gave. I didn't understand how that worked and said so in post #17, and David then showed the trick in post #18. The complete line is now written out in post #36.

No need to apologize about your short absence as far as I'm concerned: you are a very busy person. I'm not really sure exactly what "slammed" means - my version of English came from the other side of the Atlantic - but I hope this works out for you in the end, and my thoughts are with you.

richs · 2013-12-12, 15:44

Got it, Brian, thanks very much for the post references. I can live with c4.

From urbandictionary.com, definition 2 of slammed is: "Having an insane amount of work dumped on you that leaves you winded and overwhelmed." :smile: Glad to teach you a new meaning for a word...

henryzz · 2013-12-12, 21:05

[QUOTE=Brian-E;361849]They might ignore the c4 pawn and go straight for the bishop manoeuvre.

16...c4 17.Bc5

Then I'm not sure we should play 17...cxd3 because 18.Bd6 Rd8 (or 18...Rc8) 19.Ng5 and we might be in trouble.

But I suppose after 16...c4 17.Bc5 we can go straight for David's trick with 17...Bxe5 and this should work again, right?[/QUOTE]
16...c4 17.Bc5 Bxe5 18.Nxe5 Nxe5 19.Bd6 Bxg2 20.Kxg2 leaves us in a bit of a sticky position. In the old variant we would do Rb5 but that is now blocked.

I will have a go with the 17...cxb3 line and see if this has changed 17...Nxe5

henryzz · 2013-12-12, 22:03

17...cxd3 first. Something like Bd6 might be possible but I think they will want to deal with our pawn on d3 with 18.Nf2.
I would say it looks like we have two viable choices here as 18...Bxe5 doesn't seem to work. 18...Nxe5 and 18...Rd8
18...Nxe5 pretty much abandons the pawn on d3 to 19.Nxe5 Bxe5 20.Nxd3 (we could include a Bxg2 Kxg2 somewhere as it stops them doing Bxb7 Rxb7 if we want). I wouldn't choose this line myself.
18...Rd8 19.Rad1 Nxe5 20.Nxe5 Bxg2 21.Kxg2 Bxe5 22.Nxd3 Nxd3
I prefer this I think. Any opinions anyone?

17...Nxe5 18.Nxe5 Bxe5
We are opened up to Bxb7 Rxb7. This doesn't change much though I think.
19.d4 Bxg2 20.Kxg2 B(cg)7

There is a whole minefield around them doing a4 that we have hardly touched on.

Brian-E · 2013-12-12, 22:38

[QUOTE=henryzz;361907]17...cxd3 first. Something like Bd6 might be possible but I think they will want to deal with our pawn on d3 with 18.Nf2.[/QUOTE]
But our d3 pawn isn't going anywhere yet, and I think (16...c4 17.Bc5 cxd3) 18.Bd6 wins material. After 18...Rd8 19.Ng5 O-O 20.Bxe7. Or 18...Rc8 19.Ng5 Nd8 20.Bxb7.

And now that you spotted the problem whereby we can no longer play ...Rb5 in your trick line, it seems to me that 16...c4 17.Bc5 forces us to play something like 17...O-O to guard against their Ng5 threat, then 18.Bd6 Rbd8 and only then 19.dxc4 bxc4 20.Ne3. This is much worse for us than the lines we were looking at before.

Panic stations! At this late stage, I don't think we can play 16...c4 at all. My vote now: 16...Nxe5 unless someone can show how to get out of the mess.

paulunderwood · 2013-12-12, 23:44

I have never changed my mind so much. I have now flipped again to 16...Nxe5

:max:

Brian-E · 2013-12-12, 23:50

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;361920]I have never changed my mind so much. I have now flipped again to 16...Nxe5

:max:[/QUOTE]
That "smiley" has never been more appropriate!!

richs · 2013-12-13, 00:17

White going directly for the bishop fork leaves us hurting.

That being said with little time left, Nxe5 should be our move.

Brian, thanks for the message.

Brian-E · 2013-12-13, 00:28

[QUOTE=richs;361925]White going directly for the bishop fork leaves us hurting.

That being said with little time left, Nxe5 should be our move.

Brian, thanks for the message.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the language lesson earlier, Rich.:smile:

henryzz · 2013-12-13, 00:34

[QUOTE=Brian-E;361917]But our d3 pawn isn't going anywhere yet, and I think (16...c4 17.Bc5 cxd3) 18.Bd6 wins material. After 18...Rd8 19.Ng5 O-O 20.Bxe7. Or 18...Rc8 19.Ng5 Nd8 20.Bxb7.

And now that you spotted the problem whereby we can no longer play ...Rb5 in your trick line, it seems to me that 16...c4 17.Bc5 forces us to play something like 17...O-O to guard against their Ng5 threat, then 18.Bd6 Rbd8 and only then 19.dxc4 bxc4 20.Ne3. This is much worse for us than the lines we were looking at before.

Panic stations! At this late stage, I don't think we can play 16...c4 at all. My vote now: 16...Nxe5 unless someone can show how to get out of the mess.[/QUOTE]
I am not sure what the problem is.
18...Rd8 19.Ng5 Nf5 and 18...Rc8 19.Ng5 Nf5 are fine aren't they.

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2013-12-12, 06:04	#45
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	Brian, in post #39, you mention David's ingenuity for us to come out of the the Be3-c5-d6 bishop fork. Which post of David's is that? Sorry, I was slammed at work today and was not able to follow our discussions today.

2013-12-12, 09:38	#46
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;361863]Brian, in post #39, you mention David's ingenuity for us to come out of the the Be3-c5-d6 bishop fork. Which post of David's is that? Sorry, I was slammed at work today and was not able to follow our discussions today.[/QUOTE] In post #16 he mentions the move 20...Bxg2 in response to one of the lines you gave. I didn't understand how that worked and said so in post #17, and David then showed the trick in post #18. The complete line is now written out in post #36. No need to apologize about your short absence as far as I'm concerned: you are a very busy person. I'm not really sure exactly what "slammed" means - my version of English came from the other side of the Atlantic - but I hope this works out for you in the end, and my thoughts are with you.

2013-12-12, 15:44	#47
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 1718₁₀ Posts	Got it, Brian, thanks very much for the post references. I can live with c4. From urbandictionary.com, definition 2 of slammed is: "Having an insane amount of work dumped on you that leaves you winded and overwhelmed." :smile: Glad to teach you a new meaning for a word...

2013-12-12, 21:05	#48
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;361849]They might ignore the c4 pawn and go straight for the bishop manoeuvre. 16...c4 17.Bc5 Then I'm not sure we should play 17...cxd3 because 18.Bd6 Rd8 (or 18...Rc8) 19.Ng5 and we might be in trouble. But I suppose after 16...c4 17.Bc5 we can go straight for David's trick with 17...Bxe5 and this should work again, right?[/QUOTE] 16...c4 17.Bc5 Bxe5 18.Nxe5 Nxe5 19.Bd6 Bxg2 20.Kxg2 leaves us in a bit of a sticky position. In the old variant we would do Rb5 but that is now blocked. I will have a go with the 17...cxb3 line and see if this has changed 17...Nxe5

2013-12-12, 22:03	#49
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	17...cxd3 first. Something like Bd6 might be possible but I think they will want to deal with our pawn on d3 with 18.Nf2. I would say it looks like we have two viable choices here as 18...Bxe5 doesn't seem to work. 18...Nxe5 and 18...Rd8 18...Nxe5 pretty much abandons the pawn on d3 to 19.Nxe5 Bxe5 20.Nxd3 (we could include a Bxg2 Kxg2 somewhere as it stops them doing Bxb7 Rxb7 if we want). I wouldn't choose this line myself. 18...Rd8 19.Rad1 Nxe5 20.Nxe5 Bxg2 21.Kxg2 Bxe5 22.Nxd3 Nxd3 I prefer this I think. Any opinions anyone? 17...Nxe5 18.Nxe5 Bxe5 We are opened up to Bxb7 Rxb7. This doesn't change much though I think. 19.d4 Bxg2 20.Kxg2 B(cg)7 There is a whole minefield around them doing a4 that we have hardly touched on.

2013-12-12, 22:38	#50
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;361907]17...cxd3 first. Something like Bd6 might be possible but I think they will want to deal with our pawn on d3 with 18.Nf2.[/QUOTE] But our d3 pawn isn't going anywhere yet, and I think (16...c4 17.Bc5 cxd3) 18.Bd6 wins material. After 18...Rd8 19.Ng5 O-O 20.Bxe7. Or 18...Rc8 19.Ng5 Nd8 20.Bxb7. And now that you spotted the problem whereby we can no longer play ...Rb5 in your trick line, it seems to me that 16...c4 17.Bc5 forces us to play something like 17...O-O to guard against their Ng5 threat, then 18.Bd6 Rbd8 and only then 19.dxc4 bxc4 20.Ne3. This is much worse for us than the lines we were looking at before. Panic stations! At this late stage, I don't think we can play 16...c4 at all. My vote now: 16...Nxe5 unless someone can show how to get out of the mess.

2013-12-12, 23:44	#51
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 1001001001101₂ Posts	I have never changed my mind so much. I have now flipped again to 16...Nxe5 :max:

2013-12-12, 23:50	#52
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;361920]I have never changed my mind so much. I have now flipped again to 16...Nxe5 :max:[/QUOTE] That "smiley" has never been more appropriate!!

2013-12-13, 00:17	#53
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	White going directly for the bishop fork leaves us hurting. That being said with little time left, Nxe5 should be our move. Brian, thanks for the message.

2013-12-13, 00:28	#54
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;361925]White going directly for the bishop fork leaves us hurting. That being said with little time left, Nxe5 should be our move. Brian, thanks for the message.[/QUOTE] Thanks for the language lesson earlier, Rich.:smile:

2013-12-13, 00:34	#55
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;361917]But our d3 pawn isn't going anywhere yet, and I think (16...c4 17.Bc5 cxd3) 18.Bd6 wins material. After 18...Rd8 19.Ng5 O-O 20.Bxe7. Or 18...Rc8 19.Ng5 Nd8 20.Bxb7. And now that you spotted the problem whereby we can no longer play ...Rb5 in your trick line, it seems to me that 16...c4 17.Bc5 forces us to play something like 17...O-O to guard against their Ng5 threat, then 18.Bd6 Rbd8 and only then 19.dxc4 bxc4 20.Ne3. This is much worse for us than the lines we were looking at before. Panic stations! At this late stage, I don't think we can play 16...c4 at all. My vote now: 16...Nxe5 unless someone can show how to get out of the mess.[/QUOTE] I am not sure what the problem is. 18...Rd8 19.Ng5 Nf5 and 18...Rc8 19.Ng5 Nf5 are fine aren't they.