Move 16 - Page 4

Brian-E · 2013-12-11, 17:36

And I'm still undecided.:smile:

The question in my mind is whether we should prefer the our position after 16...Nxe5 and simply swapping everything off to the position after 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Ne3 Ba6 20.Nd2 Rb5 21.Bxe7 Nxe7 22.Nexc4 Bc7 (not 22...Bg7?? as I wrote earlier because of the knight fork - now I think I understand David's 19...Bc7 move!) 23.Rfd1 (getting out of the pin) O-O.

I don't think the latter more complex line leads to anything better for us. It does however give them some chance of going wrong, since we could hope that they might play 17.d4. There is also the risk for us that we have missed something for them in the complications.

So perhaps our choice now is: keep it simple (16...Nxe5), or play the complicated version (16...c4)?

paulunderwood · 2013-12-11, 17:45

Am I being stupid?

16...c4
17.dxc4 bxc4
18.Bc5 Bxe5

Why not:

19. Nxe5 Nxe5
20 Bd6 (fork)

? :unsure:

Brian-E · 2013-12-11, 18:32

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;361811]Am I being stupid?

16...c4
17.dxc4 bxc4
18.Bc5 Bxe5

Why not:

19. Nxe5 Nxe5
20 Bd6 (fork)

? :unsure:[/QUOTE]
You're not being stupid, David had to show the rest of us what we could do here. His reply was 20...Bxg2, and if 21.Bxb8 Bxf1 22.Bxe5 f6! 23.Bxf6 Rf8! protecting f1 if the B moves from f6 and thus maintaining material equality. This position, of course, is also one which needs careful weighing up should we go for 16...c4 after all.

henryzz · 2013-12-11, 21:31

My inclination is still towards c4 as I am yet to see an especially bad position result and there are so many pitfalls for them to fall into.

paulunderwood · 2013-12-11, 21:31

Hmm 16...c4 certainly leads to some interesting variations :smile:

Brian-E · 2013-12-11, 22:29

One important variation which I was concerned about for just a moment is 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Nxe5 Nxe5 20.Bd6 Bxg2 21.Bxb8 Bxf1 22.Bxe5 f6 23.Kxf1 fxe5 24.Ne3 apparently winning the c pawn and leaving us in a dreadful position, but no, we gain time to defend it with 24...O-O+ 25.Ke2 Rc8 26.Rf1 Nd5 which I think is winning for us. So this is fine.

If we can't find a way for them to get any advantage, then 16...c4 is indeed very tempting.

Rich, I don't know if you're around at the moment and following all this, but you spotted the dangerous Be3-c5-d6 manoeuvre which the rest of us had missed, after which it took David's ingenuity to show how to come out of that. If you, or anyone, can spot anything else we've missed after 16...c4 you could save us from a painful defeat by causing us to play the safer 16...Nxe5 line after all.

Brian-E · 2013-12-11, 22:49

Hmm, here's another point:

We must avoid 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Nxe5 Nxe5 20.Bd6 Bxg2 21.Bxb8 Bxf1 22.Bxe5 f6 23.Bxf6 Rf8 24.Kxf1 Rxf6+? 25.Ke2 Nc6 26.Ne3 Ne5 27.Rd1! (the knight ending after 27.Rf1? is no problem for us I think) Ke7 28.Rd4! winning the c pawn with big advantage.

But instead, we should give priority to safeguarding our c4 pawn with 24...Nd5 (instead of 24...Rxf6+) directed against their move Ne3, and only capture the bishop after that. And again, I think this is okay for us.

henryzz · 2013-12-11, 23:12

Looking at 16...Nxe5 again I still prefer c4.

paulunderwood · 2013-12-11, 23:13

I am now in favour of c4 too. :smile:

Brian-E · 2013-12-11, 23:22

16...c4 is my current vote as well. To be changed p.d.q. to 16...Nxe5 if anyone can show something drastic we've missed in the complications.

Brian-E · 2013-12-11, 23:38

They might ignore the c4 pawn and go straight for the bishop manoeuvre.

16...c4 17.Bc5

Then I'm not sure we should play 17...cxd3 because 18.Bd6 Rd8 (or 18...Rc8) 19.Ng5 and we might be in trouble.

But I suppose after 16...c4 17.Bc5 we can go straight for David's trick with 17...Bxe5 and this should work again, right?

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2013-12-11, 17:36	#34
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	And I'm still undecided.:smile: The question in my mind is whether we should prefer the our position after 16...Nxe5 and simply swapping everything off to the position after 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Ne3 Ba6 20.Nd2 Rb5 21.Bxe7 Nxe7 22.Nexc4 Bc7 (not 22...Bg7?? as I wrote earlier because of the knight fork - now I think I understand David's 19...Bc7 move!) 23.Rfd1 (getting out of the pin) O-O. I don't think the latter more complex line leads to anything better for us. It does however give them some chance of going wrong, since we could hope that they might play 17.d4. There is also the risk for us that we have missed something for them in the complications. So perhaps our choice now is: keep it simple (16...Nxe5), or play the complicated version (16...c4)?

2013-12-11, 17:45	#35
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	Am I being stupid? 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 Why not: 19. Nxe5 Nxe5 20 Bd6 (fork) ? :unsure:

2013-12-11, 18:32	#36
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;361811]Am I being stupid? 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 Why not: 19. Nxe5 Nxe5 20 Bd6 (fork) ? :unsure:[/QUOTE] You're not being stupid, David had to show the rest of us what we could do here. His reply was 20...Bxg2, and if 21.Bxb8 Bxf1 22.Bxe5 f6! 23.Bxf6 Rf8! protecting f1 if the B moves from f6 and thus maintaining material equality. This position, of course, is also one which needs careful weighing up should we go for 16...c4 after all.

2013-12-11, 21:31	#37
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 6141₁₀ Posts	My inclination is still towards c4 as I am yet to see an especially bad position result and there are so many pitfalls for them to fall into.

2013-12-11, 22:29	#39
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	One important variation which I was concerned about for just a moment is 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Nxe5 Nxe5 20.Bd6 Bxg2 21.Bxb8 Bxf1 22.Bxe5 f6 23.Kxf1 fxe5 24.Ne3 apparently winning the c pawn and leaving us in a dreadful position, but no, we gain time to defend it with 24...O-O+ 25.Ke2 Rc8 26.Rf1 Nd5 which I think is winning for us. So this is fine. If we can't find a way for them to get any advantage, then 16...c4 is indeed very tempting. Rich, I don't know if you're around at the moment and following all this, but you spotted the dangerous Be3-c5-d6 manoeuvre which the rest of us had missed, after which it took David's ingenuity to show how to come out of that. If you, or anyone, can spot anything else we've missed after 16...c4 you could save us from a painful defeat by causing us to play the safer 16...Nxe5 line after all.

2013-12-11, 22:49	#40
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	Hmm, here's another point: We must avoid 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Nxe5 Nxe5 20.Bd6 Bxg2 21.Bxb8 Bxf1 22.Bxe5 f6 23.Bxf6 Rf8 24.Kxf1 Rxf6+? 25.Ke2 Nc6 26.Ne3 Ne5 27.Rd1! (the knight ending after 27.Rf1? is no problem for us I think) Ke7 28.Rd4! winning the c pawn with big advantage. But instead, we should give priority to safeguarding our c4 pawn with 24...Nd5 (instead of 24...Rxf6+) directed against their move Ne3, and only capture the bishop after that. And again, I think this is okay for us.

2013-12-11, 23:12	#41
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	Looking at 16...Nxe5 again I still prefer c4.

2013-12-11, 23:13	#42
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	I am now in favour of c4 too. :smile:

2013-12-11, 23:22	#43
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	16...c4 is my current vote as well. To be changed p.d.q. to 16...Nxe5 if anyone can show something drastic we've missed in the complications.

2013-12-11, 23:38	#44
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	They might ignore the c4 pawn and go straight for the bishop manoeuvre. 16...c4 17.Bc5 Then I'm not sure we should play 17...cxd3 because 18.Bd6 Rd8 (or 18...Rc8) 19.Ng5 and we might be in trouble. But I suppose after 16...c4 17.Bc5 we can go straight for David's trick with 17...Bxe5 and this should work again, right?