Move 16 - Page 3

paulunderwood · 2013-12-10, 13:53

[QUOTE=henryzz;361655]I didn't give you the whole thing to begin with because I thought it worthwhile you scouting around yourself to find it. I reckoned you would find any of my mistakes. Turns out I asked a little much. I had lucked out on spotting that escape.

What would we reply after
16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Ne3
He is attacking our pawn of c4 which could have an effect. Also we can't just waste a move and have them continue with the Nxe5 line as that won't work now they can do Rxf1 defending the bishop on f6 at the proper time.

The best I can think of is probably 19...Bc7 which would lead to a completely different position which needs looking at.[/QUOTE]

Yes. Now if 20.Nxc4 Ba6 their knight is pinned. :smile:

henryzz · 2013-12-10, 15:26

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;361662]Yes. Now if 20.Nxc4 Ba6 their knight is pinned. :smile:[/QUOTE]
Yes but we would need 19...Nc7 to stop him doing 20.Nc4 like that.

After 19...Nc7 they have a lot of options: Rad1 Rf2 Nd2 Ng4
Can we come up with suitable responses to these moves?

Brian-E · 2013-12-10, 23:30

I'm not clear on the point of the move (16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Ne3) 19...Bc7. What is the thinking behind this move? I can only see it as a waste of time at the moment.

How about 19...Ba6 instead with a view to counter-attacking b2 with rooks? If 20.Nd2 (20.Nxe5 Nxe5 safeguards the c4 pawn and threatens ...Nd3 with more pressure on b2) Rb5 21.Bxe7 Nxe7 22.N(either)xc4 Bg7 followed by ...O-O and bringing the h8 rook to the queenside.

Speaking generally though, I'm less enthusiastic about 16...c4 now than I was 24 hours ago. While I don't think we get a bad position from it, I'm less sure of the positional advantage I thought we would have because it seems they will be able to swap their e pawn for our c pawn after all, meaning we have no bind on the queenside. Perhaps Rich's original exchange line following 16...Nxe5 is best after all?

richs · 2013-12-11, 04:28

I'm not thrilled about c4 either. I'd like to clean house. We still have two days to look at that line more closely.

Brian-E · 2013-12-11, 10:13

After 16...Nxe5 17.Nxe5 Bxe5 18.Bxc5 Bxg2 19.Kxg2 Rb7 followed by ...O-O I would judge the position about equal. We would need to be careful that their queenside pawn majority does not make itself felt in the endgame, but against that we can mobilise our forces faster on that side of the board.

I'm undecided between 16...c4 and 16...Nxe5. I see no clear path to advantage or disadvantage for either side in either line at the moment.

paulunderwood · 2013-12-11, 13:02

I am happy to go with Rich's exchange line, but c4 will lead to us being a pawn up, unless White replies with d4 :smile:

henryzz · 2013-12-11, 14:51

I need to go through the Nxe5 line in detail.

Brian-E · 2013-12-11, 15:55

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;361786]I am happy to go with Rich's exchange line, but c4 will lead to us being a pawn up, unless White replies with d4 :smile:[/QUOTE]
Can you show how we are a pawn up from the 16...c4 17.dxc4 line? That would most certainly sway me, I don't see it.

paulunderwood · 2013-12-11, 16:32

For example:

16...c4
17.dxc4 bxc4
18.Bc5 Nxe5
19.Nxe5 Bxe5

:smile:

Brian-E · 2013-12-11, 16:44

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;361803]For example:

16...c4
17.dxc4 bxc4
18.Bc5 Nxe5
19.Nxe5 Bxe5

:smile:[/QUOTE]
Rich pointed out 19.Bd6 in that line which seems to win material for them. David worked out that 18...Bxe5 would therefore be necessary, instead of 18...Nxe5, but then I think they end up winning our c4 pawn for the e pawn which we took. Have I missed something here?

paulunderwood · 2013-12-11, 17:09

I concede -- it looks bad. At this late hour, I am in favour of Rich's exchange line. :smile:

2013-12-10, 13:53	#23
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;361655]I didn't give you the whole thing to begin with because I thought it worthwhile you scouting around yourself to find it. I reckoned you would find any of my mistakes. Turns out I asked a little much. I had lucked out on spotting that escape. What would we reply after 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Ne3 He is attacking our pawn of c4 which could have an effect. Also we can't just waste a move and have them continue with the Nxe5 line as that won't work now they can do Rxf1 defending the bishop on f6 at the proper time. The best I can think of is probably 19...Bc7 which would lead to a completely different position which needs looking at.[/QUOTE] Yes. Now if 20.Nxc4 Ba6 their knight is pinned. :smile: Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2013-12-10 at 14:02

2013-12-10, 23:30	#25
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	I'm not clear on the point of the move (16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Ne3) 19...Bc7. What is the thinking behind this move? I can only see it as a waste of time at the moment. How about 19...Ba6 instead with a view to counter-attacking b2 with rooks? If 20.Nd2 (20.Nxe5 Nxe5 safeguards the c4 pawn and threatens ...Nd3 with more pressure on b2) Rb5 21.Bxe7 Nxe7 22.N(either)xc4 Bg7 followed by ...O-O and bringing the h8 rook to the queenside. Speaking generally though, I'm less enthusiastic about 16...c4 now than I was 24 hours ago. While I don't think we get a bad position from it, I'm less sure of the positional advantage I thought we would have because it seems they will be able to swap their e pawn for our c pawn after all, meaning we have no bind on the queenside. Perhaps Rich's original exchange line following 16...Nxe5 is best after all? Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-12-10 at 23:41 Reason: error corrected

2013-12-11, 13:02	#28
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 124D₁₆ Posts	I am happy to go with Rich's exchange line, but c4 will lead to us being a pawn up, unless White replies with d4 :smile: Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2013-12-11 at 13:12

2013-12-11, 16:32	#31
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	For example: 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Nxe5 19.Nxe5 Bxe5 :smile: Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2013-12-11 at 16:36

2013-12-11, 16:44	#32
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;361803]For example: 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Nxe5 19.Nxe5 Bxe5 :smile:[/QUOTE] Rich pointed out 19.Bd6 in that line which seems to win material for them. David worked out that 18...Bxe5 would therefore be necessary, instead of 18...Nxe5, but then I think they end up winning our c4 pawn for the e pawn which we took. Have I missed something here? Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-12-11 at 16:47 Reason: credited David for 18...Bxe5

2013-12-10, 15:26	#24
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;361662]Yes. Now if 20.Nxc4 Ba6 their knight is pinned. :smile:[/QUOTE] Yes but we would need 19...Nc7 to stop him doing 20.Nc4 like that. After 19...Nc7 they have a lot of options: Rad1 Rf2 Nd2 Ng4 Can we come up with suitable responses to these moves?

2013-12-11, 04:28	#26
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	I'm not thrilled about c4 either. I'd like to clean house. We still have two days to look at that line more closely.

2013-12-11, 10:13	#27
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	After 16...Nxe5 17.Nxe5 Bxe5 18.Bxc5 Bxg2 19.Kxg2 Rb7 followed by ...O-O I would judge the position about equal. We would need to be careful that their queenside pawn majority does not make itself felt in the endgame, but against that we can mobilise our forces faster on that side of the board. I'm undecided between 16...c4 and 16...Nxe5. I see no clear path to advantage or disadvantage for either side in either line at the moment.

2013-12-11, 14:51	#29
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	I need to go through the Nxe5 line in detail.

2013-12-11, 15:55	#30
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;361786]I am happy to go with Rich's exchange line, but c4 will lead to us being a pawn up, unless White replies with d4 :smile:[/QUOTE] Can you show how we are a pawn up from the 16...c4 17.dxc4 line? That would most certainly sway me, I don't see it.

2013-12-11, 17:09	#33
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 4685₁₀ Posts	I concede -- it looks bad. At this late hour, I am in favour of Rich's exchange line. :smile:

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