Move 16 - Page 2

paulunderwood · 2013-12-08, 21:21

[QUOTE=Brian-E;361491]Well, is anyone considering any move other than 16...c4 at the moment?

I'm not really. It stands head and shoulders above other moves in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

The only viable alternative is Rich's exchange line, which would make the game more open. However, I am in favour of keeping the game fairly closed with 16...c4. :smile:

richs · 2013-12-09, 20:48

I still think the more likely White response in the c4 line is:

16. ... c4
17. dxc4 bxc4
18. Bc5 O-O

Another line:

16. ... c4
17. dxc4 bxc4
18. Bc5 Nxe5
19. Bd6 Nxf3+
20. Bxf3 Bxf3
21. Bxb8

and no good for us since we lose a rook....

or

16. fxe5 c4
17. dxc4 bxc4
18. Bc5 Bxe5
19. Nxe5 Nxe5
20. Bd6

and we lose a knight.

The analysis for the c4 line hinges on their 17. d4 move. The alternative 17. dxc4 is not very good for us.

paulunderwood · 2013-12-09, 20:59

Rich, are you happy with:
16. ... c4
17. dxc4 bxc4
18. Bc5 O-O
?

richs · 2013-12-09, 21:19

I'm still looking at that, Paul.

henryzz · 2013-12-09, 23:10

[QUOTE=richs;361585]
16. fxe5 c4
17. dxc4 bxc4
18. Bc5 Bxe5
19. Nxe5 Nxe5
20. Bd6

and we lose a knight.
[/QUOTE]
Can be continued 20...Bxg2
I think this solves all our problems there.

16. fxe5 c4
17. dxc4 Nxe5
18. cxb5 Nxf3+
19. Bxf3 Bxf3
20. Rxf3 Rxb5

Doesn't look too bad after this sequence either

As long as we are careful I don't think dxc4 is bad for us. We have options.

Brian-E · 2013-12-10, 11:18

The possible bishop fork from the manoeuvre Be3-c5-d6 to which Rich draws our attention is certainly something to be wary of, and I underestimated it before.

In general positional terms I am of the opinion that if they reply (16...c4) 17.dxc4 then their weaknesses on e5 and b2 are horrible for them. But I'm not sure about the tactics now.

I'm not sure that David's suggestion of (16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Nxe5 Nxe5 20.Bd6) 20...Bxg2 helps because after 21.Bxb8 Bxf1 22.Bxe5 we still lose a piece because both f1 and h8 are now attacked. The other line which David gives with 16...c4 17.dxc4 Nxe5 seems to keep material equality, but they then get away scot free without the weaknesses I mention in the previous paragraph and I see no advantage for us at the end of that line.

The move (16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5) 18...O-O as suggested by Rich and Paul would be nice to play. But I'm not sure about the tactics after 19.Bd6 Rbd8 (intending to drive away the bishop with ...Rd7, ...Rfd8 and ...Nc8) 20.Ne3 Ba6 21.Nd2 threatening ...Bxc6 as well as the c4 pawn. If 21...Bh6 22.Rae1. This doesn't look too good to me at the moment. Can anyone improve it for us?

henryzz · 2013-12-10, 11:43

[QUOTE=Brian-E;361641]I'm not sure that David's suggestion of (16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Nxe5 Nxe5 20.Bd6) 20...Bxg2 helps because after 21.Bxb8 Bxf1 22.Bxe5 we still lose a piece because both f1 and h8 are now attacked. The other line which David gives with 16...c4 17.dxc4 Nxe5 seems to keep material equality, but they then get away scot free without the weaknesses I mention in the previous paragraph and I see no advantage for us at the end of that line.
[/QUOTE]
22...f6 23.Bxf6 Rf8

Brian-E · 2013-12-10, 12:32

[QUOTE=henryzz;361642]22...f6 23.Bxf6 Rf8[/QUOTE]
Ah, yes that works! I missed that trick on the f file.

You're obviously used to Maths texts where the reader has to fill in the tricky details between lines of the proof on the page. Or you just like testing your team members.:bow:

Looks like we're okay then after 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5? Can anyone see any way our opponents can turn the tactics to their advantage here? If not then it's great for us from a positional point of view, I think.

paulunderwood · 2013-12-10, 13:15

[QUOTE=Brian-E;361650]

Looks like we're okay then after 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5? Can anyone see any way our opponents can turn the tactics to their advantage here? If not then it's great for us from a positional point of view, I think.[/QUOTE]

19. Nxe5 Nxe5
20. Bd6 Bxg2
21. Kxg2 Rb5

Looks okay to me :smile:

henryzz · 2013-12-10, 13:19

I didn't give you the whole thing to begin with because I thought it worthwhile you scouting around yourself to find it. I reckoned you would find any of my mistakes. Turns out I asked a little much. I had lucked out on spotting that escape.

What would we reply after
16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Ne3
He is attacking our pawn of c4 which could have an effect. Also we can't just waste a move and have them continue with the Nxe5 line as that won't work now they can do Rxf1 defending the bishop on f6 at the proper time.

The best I can think of is probably 19...Bc7 which would lead to a completely different position which needs looking at.

Brian-E · 2013-12-10, 13:22

Got to dash out to work now, guys. I'll be back in the discussion in about 9-10 hours.

2013-12-08, 21:21	#12
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5·937 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;361491]Well, is anyone considering any move other than 16...c4 at the moment? I'm not really. It stands head and shoulders above other moves in my opinion.[/QUOTE] The only viable alternative is Rich's exchange line, which would make the game more open. However, I am in favour of keeping the game fairly closed with 16...c4. :smile: Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2013-12-08 at 21:23

2013-12-10, 13:19	#21
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	I didn't give you the whole thing to begin with because I thought it worthwhile you scouting around yourself to find it. I reckoned you would find any of my mistakes. Turns out I asked a little much. I had lucked out on spotting that escape. What would we reply after 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Ne3 He is attacking our pawn of c4 which could have an effect. Also we can't just waste a move and have them continue with the Nxe5 line as that won't work now they can do Rxf1 defending the bishop on f6 at the proper time. The best I can think of is probably 19...Bc7 which would lead to a completely different position which needs looking at. Last fiddled with by henryzz on 2013-12-10 at 13:20

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2013-12-09, 20:48	#13
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 1718₁₀ Posts	I still think the more likely White response in the c4 line is: 16. ... c4 17. dxc4 bxc4 18. Bc5 O-O Another line: 16. ... c4 17. dxc4 bxc4 18. Bc5 Nxe5 19. Bd6 Nxf3+ 20. Bxf3 Bxf3 21. Bxb8 and no good for us since we lose a rook.... or 16. fxe5 c4 17. dxc4 bxc4 18. Bc5 Bxe5 19. Nxe5 Nxe5 20. Bd6 and we lose a knight. The analysis for the c4 line hinges on their 17. d4 move. The alternative 17. dxc4 is not very good for us.

2013-12-09, 20:59	#14
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	Rich, are you happy with: 16. ... c4 17. dxc4 bxc4 18. Bc5 O-O ?

2013-12-09, 21:19	#15
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2·859 Posts	I'm still looking at that, Paul.

2013-12-09, 23:10	#16
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;361585] 16. fxe5 c4 17. dxc4 bxc4 18. Bc5 Bxe5 19. Nxe5 Nxe5 20. Bd6 and we lose a knight. [/QUOTE] Can be continued 20...Bxg2 I think this solves all our problems there. 16. fxe5 c4 17. dxc4 Nxe5 18. cxb5 Nxf3+ 19. Bxf3 Bxf3 20. Rxf3 Rxb5 Doesn't look too bad after this sequence either As long as we are careful I don't think dxc4 is bad for us. We have options.

2013-12-10, 11:18	#17
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	The possible bishop fork from the manoeuvre Be3-c5-d6 to which Rich draws our attention is certainly something to be wary of, and I underestimated it before. In general positional terms I am of the opinion that if they reply (16...c4) 17.dxc4 then their weaknesses on e5 and b2 are horrible for them. But I'm not sure about the tactics now. I'm not sure that David's suggestion of (16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Nxe5 Nxe5 20.Bd6) 20...Bxg2 helps because after 21.Bxb8 Bxf1 22.Bxe5 we still lose a piece because both f1 and h8 are now attacked. The other line which David gives with 16...c4 17.dxc4 Nxe5 seems to keep material equality, but they then get away scot free without the weaknesses I mention in the previous paragraph and I see no advantage for us at the end of that line. The move (16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5) 18...O-O as suggested by Rich and Paul would be nice to play. But I'm not sure about the tactics after 19.Bd6 Rbd8 (intending to drive away the bishop with ...Rd7, ...Rfd8 and ...Nc8) 20.Ne3 Ba6 21.Nd2 threatening ...Bxc6 as well as the c4 pawn. If 21...Bh6 22.Rae1. This doesn't look too good to me at the moment. Can anyone improve it for us?

2013-12-10, 11:43	#18
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3·23·89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;361641]I'm not sure that David's suggestion of (16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5 19.Nxe5 Nxe5 20.Bd6) 20...Bxg2 helps because after 21.Bxb8 Bxf1 22.Bxe5 we still lose a piece because both f1 and h8 are now attacked. The other line which David gives with 16...c4 17.dxc4 Nxe5 seems to keep material equality, but they then get away scot free without the weaknesses I mention in the previous paragraph and I see no advantage for us at the end of that line. [/QUOTE] 22...f6 23.Bxf6 Rf8

2013-12-10, 12:32	#19
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;361642]22...f6 23.Bxf6 Rf8[/QUOTE] Ah, yes that works! I missed that trick on the f file. You're obviously used to Maths texts where the reader has to fill in the tricky details between lines of the proof on the page. Or you just like testing your team members.:bow: Looks like we're okay then after 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5? Can anyone see any way our opponents can turn the tactics to their advantage here? If not then it's great for us from a positional point of view, I think.

2013-12-10, 13:15	#20
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 11115₈ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;361650] Looks like we're okay then after 16...c4 17.dxc4 bxc4 18.Bc5 Bxe5? Can anyone see any way our opponents can turn the tactics to their advantage here? If not then it's great for us from a positional point of view, I think.[/QUOTE] 19. Nxe5 Nxe5 20. Bd6 Bxg2 21. Kxg2 Rb5 Looks okay to me :smile:

2013-12-10, 13:22	#22
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	Got to dash out to work now, guys. I'll be back in the discussion in about 9-10 hours.