Move 16

Brian-E · 2013-12-06, 11:44

We did a lot of work on the position last move, examining several moves in the position reached now (16...Nxe5, 16...Nf5, 16...c4, 16...Rd8). It seemed to me that the move 16...c4, originally suggested by Paul, was the one which most clearly led us to an advantageous position, whether they replied 17.d4 or 17.dxc4.

But as always we don't have to be hasty now. A fresh look may turn up something else entirely.

paulunderwood · 2013-12-06, 12:13

If White advances their knight: 17.Ng5 we can castle to protect f7. :smile:

16...Rd4 attacks White's d pawn, but if they move it to d4 they out-gun us, plus they will have a pair of pawns in the middle and it leaves our bishop on b7 undefended if it becomes exposed.

henryzz · 2013-12-07, 10:16

I think it might be worth looking at where we plan to go from 16... c4 17. d4 a bit further.

Brian-E · 2013-12-07, 10:20

Yes, castling secures f7. And I agree that the rook on b8 is best where it is for the moment, protecting b7 and looking at the b file where our action (...b4) may come at the right moment.

After 16...c4 17.d4 we can anticipate a positional struggle where we have prospects of eventually breaking through with ...b4 at an advantageous moment while they have chances of manoeuvring a knight via e4 to d6 with pressure on f7 (which we might counter by exchanging that knight).

This sample line gives us a good endgame: 16...c4 17.d4 O-O 18.Nd2 Nd5 19.Bf2 Nce7 20.Ne4 Bc6 21.Nd6 Rb6 22.Ne3 Nxe3 23.Bxe3 Bxg2 24.Kxg2 Nf5 25.Nxf5 gxf5 with the better bishop and ready to double rooks on the b file and play ...b4 at the right moment.

EDIT: Just seen David's post above. We were thinking the same thing! :-)

henryzz · 2013-12-07, 13:25

[QUOTE=Brian-E;361347]This sample line gives us a good endgame: 16...c4 17.d4 O-O 18.Nd2 Nd5 19.Bf2 Nce7 20.Ne4 Bc6 21.Nd6 Rb6 22.Ne3 Nxe3 23.Bxe3 Bxg2 24.Kxg2 Nf5 25.Nxf5 gxf5 with the better bishop and ready to double rooks on the b file and play ...b4 at the right moment.[/QUOTE]
Not too happy with 19.Bf2. It blocks the rook and the bishop is a bit trapped and can't do much.
If I were them I would do Bg5 or maybe even Ne4

Brian-E · 2013-12-07, 15:15

[QUOTE=henryzz;361354]Not too happy with 19.Bf2. It blocks the rook and the bishop is a bit trapped and can't do much.
If I were them I would do Bg5 or maybe even Ne4[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Bg5 intending Bf6 should be avoided. Perhaps we ought to play (after 16...c4 17.d4) 17...h6 first.

To answer your earlier question about planning after 16...c4 17.d4, my general strategic nose tells me to complete development, amass the rooks on the queenside and play ...b4 to break through at the right moment. We have the luxury of determining when we do that. They have play too, and we need to parry their plans (such as Bg5 as you just pointed out) as well as carrying out our own plan.

henryzz · 2013-12-07, 16:01

A line for h6 throwing up some more ideas.
16...c4 17.d4 h6 18.a4 b4 19. Nd2

Brian-E · 2013-12-07, 18:48

[QUOTE=henryzz;361369]A line for h6 throwing up some more ideas.
16...c4 17.d4 h6 18.a4 b4 19. Nd2[/QUOTE]
Yes, then maybe 19...Ba6 is necessary to protect c4. After that we are looking at ...Nd5 soon: this knight puts pressure on the queenside, can retreat to b6 for extra protection of c4 if necessary, or encourages them to exchange their active g2 bishop for it after which we have the better minor pieces.

paulunderwood · 2013-12-07, 20:39

16...c4 17.d4 h6 stops most of their King's side attack. I like it. :smile:

henryzz · 2013-12-07, 21:05

[QUOTE=Brian-E;361382]Yes, then maybe 19...Ba6 is necessary to protect c4. After that we are looking at ...Nd5 soon: this knight puts pressure on the queenside, can retreat to b6 for extra protection of c4 if necessary, or encourages them to exchange their active g2 bishop for it after which we have the better minor pieces.[/QUOTE]
19...Ba6 isn't necessary.
For example 19...O-O 20.Nxc4 Ba6 21.b3 Rfd8 22.Re1 bxc3 23.Nxc3 Bxc4 24.bxc4 Nxd4
We are up a pawn here and are in a good position.
I would label 20.Nxc4 as the mistake in that sequence.

Brian-E · 2013-12-08, 21:12

Well, is anyone considering any move other than 16...c4 at the moment?

I'm not really. It stands head and shoulders above other moves in my opinion.

2013-12-06, 11:44	#1
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	Move 16 We did a lot of work on the position last move, examining several moves in the position reached now (16...Nxe5, 16...Nf5, 16...c4, 16...Rd8). It seemed to me that the move 16...c4, originally suggested by Paul, was the one which most clearly led us to an advantageous position, whether they replied 17.d4 or 17.dxc4. But as always we don't have to be hasty now. A fresh look may turn up something else entirely.

2013-12-06, 12:13	#2
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	If White advances their knight: 17.Ng5 we can castle to protect f7. :smile: 16...Rd4 attacks White's d pawn, but if they move it to d4 they out-gun us, plus they will have a pair of pawns in the middle and it leaves our bishop on b7 undefended if it becomes exposed. Last fiddled with by paulunderwood on 2013-12-06 at 12:18

2013-12-07, 10:20	#4
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	Yes, castling secures f7. And I agree that the rook on b8 is best where it is for the moment, protecting b7 and looking at the b file where our action (...b4) may come at the right moment. After 16...c4 17.d4 we can anticipate a positional struggle where we have prospects of eventually breaking through with ...b4 at an advantageous moment while they have chances of manoeuvring a knight via e4 to d6 with pressure on f7 (which we might counter by exchanging that knight). This sample line gives us a good endgame: 16...c4 17.d4 O-O 18.Nd2 Nd5 19.Bf2 Nce7 20.Ne4 Bc6 21.Nd6 Rb6 22.Ne3 Nxe3 23.Bxe3 Bxg2 24.Kxg2 Nf5 25.Nxf5 gxf5 with the better bishop and ready to double rooks on the b file and play ...b4 at the right moment. EDIT: Just seen David's post above. We were thinking the same thing! :-) Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-12-07 at 10:20

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2013-12-07, 10:16	#3
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 1011111111101₂ Posts	I think it might be worth looking at where we plan to go from 16... c4 17. d4 a bit further.

2013-12-07, 13:25	#5
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 17FD₁₆ Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;361347]This sample line gives us a good endgame: 16...c4 17.d4 O-O 18.Nd2 Nd5 19.Bf2 Nce7 20.Ne4 Bc6 21.Nd6 Rb6 22.Ne3 Nxe3 23.Bxe3 Bxg2 24.Kxg2 Nf5 25.Nxf5 gxf5 with the better bishop and ready to double rooks on the b file and play ...b4 at the right moment.[/QUOTE] Not too happy with 19.Bf2. It blocks the rook and the bishop is a bit trapped and can't do much. If I were them I would do Bg5 or maybe even Ne4

2013-12-07, 15:15	#6
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 6316₈ Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;361354]Not too happy with 19.Bf2. It blocks the rook and the bishop is a bit trapped and can't do much. If I were them I would do Bg5 or maybe even Ne4[/QUOTE] Agreed. Bg5 intending Bf6 should be avoided. Perhaps we ought to play (after 16...c4 17.d4) 17...h6 first. To answer your earlier question about planning after 16...c4 17.d4, my general strategic nose tells me to complete development, amass the rooks on the queenside and play ...b4 to break through at the right moment. We have the luxury of determining when we do that. They have play too, and we need to parry their plans (such as Bg5 as you just pointed out) as well as carrying out our own plan.

2013-12-07, 16:01	#7
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 1011111111101₂ Posts	A line for h6 throwing up some more ideas. 16...c4 17.d4 h6 18.a4 b4 19. Nd2

2013-12-07, 18:48	#8
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	[QUOTE=henryzz;361369]A line for h6 throwing up some more ideas. 16...c4 17.d4 h6 18.a4 b4 19. Nd2[/QUOTE] Yes, then maybe 19...Ba6 is necessary to protect c4. After that we are looking at ...Nd5 soon: this knight puts pressure on the queenside, can retreat to b6 for extra protection of c4 if necessary, or encourages them to exchange their active g2 bishop for it after which we have the better minor pieces.

2013-12-07, 20:39	#9
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 124D₁₆ Posts	16...c4 17.d4 h6 stops most of their King's side attack. I like it. :smile:

2013-12-07, 21:05	#10
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 3×23×89 Posts	[QUOTE=Brian-E;361382]Yes, then maybe 19...Ba6 is necessary to protect c4. After that we are looking at ...Nd5 soon: this knight puts pressure on the queenside, can retreat to b6 for extra protection of c4 if necessary, or encourages them to exchange their active g2 bishop for it after which we have the better minor pieces.[/QUOTE] 19...Ba6 isn't necessary. For example 19...O-O 20.Nxc4 Ba6 21.b3 Rfd8 22.Re1 bxc3 23.Nxc3 Bxc4 24.bxc4 Nxd4 We are up a pawn here and are in a good position. I would label 20.Nxc4 as the mistake in that sequence.

2013-12-08, 21:12	#11
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 3278₁₀ Posts	Well, is anyone considering any move other than 16...c4 at the moment? I'm not really. It stands head and shoulders above other moves in my opinion.