Move 15

richs · 2013-11-22, 15:45

So here is the line that I looked at in the Move 14 thread:

14. ... a5
15. e5 dxe5
16. fxe5 Nxe5
17. Nxe5 Bxe5
18. Bxc5 Bxg2
19. Kxg2 Nd5

I'll look at other responses they may have to 15...dxe5

Brian-E · 2013-11-22, 17:11

An alternative to allow us to castle and develop the king's rook more easily:
15...Nf5 16.Bf2 O-O 17.exd6 c4. We recapture on d6 shortly with our knight, or if they try to hold onto it with 18.dxc4 bxc4 19.Bb6 (19.Bc5 Rfd8) Rfc8 followed by ...Bf8. I think their backward b pawn on the half open file is weaker than our isolated queenside pawns. I also prefer our structure if they avoid 18.dxc4 and play 18.d4 instead because we have a spatial advantage.

Brian-E · 2013-11-22, 17:36

The above is broadly what I had in mind when we were considering move 14 (Rich's line is good too, but it does delay the development of our king's rook), but on reconsidering now I think they can improve with 15...Nf5 16.Bf2 O-O [U]17.g4[/U] Nh6 18.exd6 c4 19.dxc4 bxc4 20.h3 Rfd8 (and if 21.Bc5 Bf8) when our knight on h6 is shut out of the game for now. So I'm not at all sure this is any better than what Rich suggests.

EDIT: Can I suggest Rich's line with the improvement (15...dxe5 16.fxe5 Nxe5 17.Nxe5 Bxe5 18.Bxc5 Bxg2 19.Kxg2) [U]19...Rb7[/U] with ...O-O to follow?

Brian-E · 2013-11-25, 09:47

I hope we can get a discussion going before we get into time trouble this move.

For purposes of listing our possible moves, am I right in thinking that only 15...dxe5 and 15...Nf5 are worth considering, other moves losing at least one pawn?

paulunderwood · 2013-11-25, 19:33

Back. I was away for a couple of days.

Rich's line leaves a lot of ways for the rooks to get on open files. The board will certainly be clearer. (Maybe with Rb7; so we can castle, putting the king in with the king's side pawns.)

15...Nf5 attacks White's bishop which is very good.

Do we want our knight to end up on f5 or d5?

Brian-E · 2013-11-26, 00:34

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;360280]Do we want our knight to end up on f5 or d5?[/QUOTE]
Good question, and perhaps we should be leaving both options open for now if it isn't clear yet. That's an argument for not playing ...Nf5 yet.

My current preference is 15...dxe5 and something like Rich's line to follow.

richs · 2013-11-26, 01:51

Here's a line with Nf5:

15. ... Nf5
16. exd6 Nxe3
17. Nxe3 O-O
18. Rfd1 Rfd8
19. Ng5 Rxd6
20. Ne4

We exchanged our knight for their bishop, pawns are even, we get to castle and bring our rooks to play, and we have better position. Is there anything I missed?

Brian-E · 2013-11-26, 10:10

[QUOTE=richs;360308]Here's a line with Nf5:[/QUOTE]
That's clearly good for us, but in my opinion they should not allow us to take their e3 bishop and should retreat it with 16.Bf2.

Can you, or anyone, see an improvement for us in the line given in post #3, 15...Nf5 16.Bf2 O-O 17.g4 etc ?

paulunderwood · 2013-11-26, 11:44

Another line:

15...dxe5
16.fxe5 c4
17.d4...

Maybe we can castle here. This line will leave more pieces on the board than Rich's exchange line of post #1 :smile:

Brian-E · 2013-11-26, 19:14

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;360332]Another line:

15...dxe5
16.fxe5 c4
17.d4...

Maybe we can castle here. This line will leave more pieces on the board than Rich's exchange line of post #1 :smile:[/QUOTE]
I like this very much at first glance. It's a closed position with, I think, a definite advantage for us due to the d5 square and good possibilities of eventually breaking through on the queenside.

They might play 17.dxc4 instead of 17.d4, but I like that too for us. The half open b file with their backward pawn on b2 more than compensates our isolated queenside pawns i.m.o.

henryzz · 2013-11-27, 00:03

Uni is crazy lately. Found time to do some procrastination by playing chess.
Looks to me like dxe5 is probably best especially with Paul's latest.
Looks to me like no one has looked at Rd8.

2013-11-22, 17:11	#2
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	An alternative to allow us to castle and develop the king's rook more easily: 15...Nf5 16.Bf2 O-O 17.exd6 c4. We recapture on d6 shortly with our knight, or if they try to hold onto it with 18.dxc4 bxc4 19.Bb6 (19.Bc5 Rfd8) Rfc8 followed by ...Bf8. I think their backward b pawn on the half open file is weaker than our isolated queenside pawns. I also prefer our structure if they avoid 18.dxc4 and play 18.d4 instead because we have a spatial advantage. Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-11-22 at 17:19 Reason: analysis error

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2013-11-22, 15:45	#1
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 6B6₁₆ Posts	Move 15 So here is the line that I looked at in the Move 14 thread: 14. ... a5 15. e5 dxe5 16. fxe5 Nxe5 17. Nxe5 Bxe5 18. Bxc5 Bxg2 19. Kxg2 Nd5 I'll look at other responses they may have to 15...dxe5

2013-11-22, 17:36	#3
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	The above is broadly what I had in mind when we were considering move 14 (Rich's line is good too, but it does delay the development of our king's rook), but on reconsidering now I think they can improve with 15...Nf5 16.Bf2 O-O [U]17.g4[/U] Nh6 18.exd6 c4 19.dxc4 bxc4 20.h3 Rfd8 (and if 21.Bc5 Bf8) when our knight on h6 is shut out of the game for now. So I'm not at all sure this is any better than what Rich suggests. EDIT: Can I suggest Rich's line with the improvement (15...dxe5 16.fxe5 Nxe5 17.Nxe5 Bxe5 18.Bxc5 Bxg2 19.Kxg2) [U]19...Rb7[/U] with ...O-O to follow? Last fiddled with by Brian-E on 2013-11-22 at 17:41

2013-11-25, 09:47	#4
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2×11×149 Posts	I hope we can get a discussion going before we get into time trouble this move. For purposes of listing our possible moves, am I right in thinking that only 15...dxe5 and 15...Nf5 are worth considering, other moves losing at least one pawn?

2013-11-25, 19:33	#5
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	Back. I was away for a couple of days. Rich's line leaves a lot of ways for the rooks to get on open files. The board will certainly be clearer. (Maybe with Rb7; so we can castle, putting the king in with the king's side pawns.) 15...Nf5 attacks White's bishop which is very good. Do we want our knight to end up on f5 or d5?

2013-11-26, 00:34	#6
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;360280]Do we want our knight to end up on f5 or d5?[/QUOTE] Good question, and perhaps we should be leaving both options open for now if it isn't clear yet. That's an argument for not playing ...Nf5 yet. My current preference is 15...dxe5 and something like Rich's line to follow.

2013-11-26, 01:51	#7
richs "Rich" Aug 2002 Benicia, California 2×859 Posts	Here's a line with Nf5: 15. ... Nf5 16. exd6 Nxe3 17. Nxe3 O-O 18. Rfd1 Rfd8 19. Ng5 Rxd6 20. Ne4 We exchanged our knight for their bishop, pawns are even, we get to castle and bring our rooks to play, and we have better position. Is there anything I missed?

2013-11-26, 10:10	#8
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 2·11·149 Posts	[QUOTE=richs;360308]Here's a line with Nf5:[/QUOTE] That's clearly good for us, but in my opinion they should not allow us to take their e3 bishop and should retreat it with 16.Bf2. Can you, or anyone, see an improvement for us in the line given in post #3, 15...Nf5 16.Bf2 O-O 17.g4 etc ?

2013-11-26, 11:44	#9
paulunderwood Sep 2002 Database er0rr 5×937 Posts	Another line: 15...dxe5 16.fxe5 c4 17.d4... Maybe we can castle here. This line will leave more pieces on the board than Rich's exchange line of post #1 :smile:

2013-11-26, 19:14	#10
Brian-E "Brian" Jul 2007 The Netherlands 110011001110₂ Posts	[QUOTE=paulunderwood;360332]Another line: 15...dxe5 16.fxe5 c4 17.d4... Maybe we can castle here. This line will leave more pieces on the board than Rich's exchange line of post #1 :smile:[/QUOTE] I like this very much at first glance. It's a closed position with, I think, a definite advantage for us due to the d5 square and good possibilities of eventually breaking through on the queenside. They might play 17.dxc4 instead of 17.d4, but I like that too for us. The half open b file with their backward pawn on b2 more than compensates our isolated queenside pawns i.m.o.

2013-11-27, 00:03	#11
henryzz Just call me Henry "David" Sep 2007 Liverpool (GMT/BST) 13775₈ Posts	Uni is crazy lately. Found time to do some procrastination by playing chess. Looks to me like dxe5 is probably best especially with Paul's latest. Looks to me like no one has looked at Rd8.